"freewill"

[alpha]

without freewill there is no responsibility

-Imp

precisely.

[alpha]

This is pure nonsense and babble, it has nothing to do what shrinks and other scientists thinks about "free will".

Go get a clue.

thank you for your insight.

[alpha]

i'm inclined to believe in determinism because logic dictates it.

no one can deny the [appearance of the] existence of order in the universe -why not? what if order comes out of chance - is that order or chance?, which necessitates the existence of causation. only strict cause and effect can produce order- what about 1,2,3,4 - are you saying that these numbers are not ordered, or that they cause one another?-. the existence of -any- randomness is not only impossible - what about quantum randomness or random number generators?, but would only lead to indeterminism -what if some parts are ordered and some are not?.

"freewill" is either subject to this lawYou haven't stated any laws - is 'order' a law? Is there a bunch of different kinds of 'orders?' - if so, is there an order to this set of orders?, or it isn't. if it is, then it's not genuine freewill - whay can't free will be subject to order - such as 'I have always chosen to put my right foot in my pants before my left foot. But today, I'm switching.'. if it isn't then it's subject to randomness (for the sake of argument), and therefor, isn't true freewill either. What does 'subject to randomness mean?' Is it anything like being caused by randomness? How is something caused by order or randomness? Is gravity order? Is it a cause? What causes gravity?

i don't really see a third possibility. do you? I see many possibilities; start with - 'is everything in the universe physical? 'What's the difference between a law and a pattern? How can you prove that what you think is a cause and effect is not just a correlation? '

This is pure nonsense and babble, it has nothing to do what shrinks and other scientists thinks about "free will".

Go get a clue.

- "why not? what if order comes out of chance - is that order or chance?" chance (randomness) cannot (by definition) produce order; only strict causality can.

- "what about 1,2,3,4 - are you saying that these numbers are not ordered, or that they cause one another?" if they are indeed ordered, then they must be caused by something. being caused by one another results in a vicious circle.

- "what about quantum randomness or random number generators?" no such a thing as quantum randomness. what seems random only lacks certain visible variables. same with "random" number generators; they're not truly random. there just exist certain hidden (to us) variables, that make them seem random.

- "what if some parts are ordered and some are not?" two problems; 1- you must conclusively demonstrate this alleged randomness. 2- the there can only be one; either complete order, or complete randomness. both cannot coexist. if order didn't exist, we wouldn't be able to communicate like we are doing now.

- "You haven't stated any laws - is 'order' a law?" i meant the law of causality.

- "Is there a bunch of different kinds of 'orders?' what about quantum randomness or random number generators?what if some parts are ordered and some are not?You haven't stated any laws - is 'order' a law?Is there a bunch of different kinds of 'orders?- if so, is there an order to this set of orders?" i don't know; but i could think about it if it has any real bearing on the matter.

- "whay can't free will be subject to order - such as 'I have always chosen to put my right foot in my pants before my left foot. But today, I'm switching." if it was truly subject to order (which i maintain it is) it wouldn't be "free" will any longer, would it? it would be strictly ordered (caused) will.

- "What does 'subject to randomness mean?' Is it anything like being caused by randomness? How is something caused by order or randomness? Is gravity order? Is it a cause? What causes gravity?" yes, subject to randomness means caused by randomness. things must either be caused by cause and effect, or randomness. gravity is both a cause (causes objects to not float/drift away) and an effect to other causes (some of which might be unknown).

- "I see many possibilities; start with - 'is everything in the universe physical? 'What's the difference between a law and a pattern? How can you prove that what you think is a cause and effect is not just a correlation?" my law is logical, not physical; so it applies to physical and metaphysical things. a law must always hold true, whereas a pattern, doesn't have to. 1+1=2 is not a correlation. as i stated, order can only come from strict causality. the universe certainly has order, it's not just an illusion of order. even if it were an illusion, that wouldn't help your case for freewill.

[Skip]

It doesn't matter that our decisions are predetermined. We experience the process of considering option, making choices and taking action, as if they were autonomous. We judge our own and one another's actions as if those actions were the result of free will; as if our judgment and reaction were not also predetermined. We experience our lives as self-determined. We cannot do otherwise.

alpha:

@ skip; please tolerate the fact that i don't use capitals; consider it a quirk.

I consider it laziness, trying to pass as eccentricity. A different style or approach is 'a quirk' when it's uniquely individual. When it makes no sense or statement, shows no philosophical or artistic basis, is in no way an improvement on the standard, looks exactly like the style or approach of a cohort that's all thumbs and takes less effort than the norm, I see no merit in it.

But, I suppose, you can't help it.

[alpha]

It doesn't matter that our decisions are predetermined. We experience the process of considering option, making choices and taking action, as if they were autonomous. We judge our own and one another's actions as if those actions were the result of free will; as if our judgment and reaction were not also predetermined. We experience our lives as self-determined. We cannot do otherwise.

it matters that they're predetermined. what doesn't matter is the artificial and illusory (perceived) freewill, that we experience.

we were simply designed/programmed by god to feel and "judge" this way. that is the ultimate deception by "god".

[Skip]

What's your point - if any?

[alpha]

What's your point - if any?

what's yours?

my point is that perceived freewill is essentially meaningless, and bequeaths no responsibility. what's the purpose of our existence? no point that i can see (in a purely deterministic system).

[Skip]

So, there is no purpose or meaning.
Nevertheless, most of us go on chugging right along, as if we had wills and lives of our own; people to love, places to go and things to do.
I'm okay with being a product of three and half billion years of life - to whatever that long process may have predisposed me and however it may have prearranged the environment in which I operate. I'm okay with knowing that the abstract concepts with which I occupy the parts of my brain that are not currently involved with survival, creative endeavour, relationships, fuming at Harpoon ads and other entertainment are human inventions, probably unreal and possibly surplus to basic requirements.... assuming that even basic requirements are worthy of intellectual consideration. I'm okay with reading, learning about and discussing these concepts, without necessarily taking them seriously.

I don't start threads on forums to state, rather ineptly, that I have nothing to say.

[alpha]

@ skip;

if you're ok with everything in the world, and have nothing to contribute to this discussion but jabs, please only post in other threads, and leave this one for people who aren't necessarily ok with everything, and don't "know" everything.

[Skip]

What discussion?

Okay, it's all yours.

[Wyman]

things must either be caused by cause and effect, or randomness.

This is your logical argument. But notice that it is circular. Things must be either caused by causes or caused by randomness, exclusive. Definition of 'cause' - something that causes things. Q.E.D. Things are caused by causes.

[alpha]

things must either be caused by cause and effect, or randomness.

This is your logical argument. But notice that it is circular. Things must be either caused by causes or caused by randomness, exclusive. Definition of 'cause' - something that causes things. Q.E.D. Things are caused by causes.

let me rephrase that then; things must either be subject to strict cause-and-effect (one word), or subject to randomness.

is that better?

[Wyman]

things must either be caused by cause and effect, or randomness.

This is your logical argument. But notice that it is circular. Things must be either caused by causes or caused by randomness, exclusive. Definition of 'cause' - something that causes things. Q.E.D. Things are caused by causes.

let me rephrase that then; things must either be subject to strict cause-and-effect (one word), or subject to randomness.

is that better?

No, look at an earlier post. You said that 'subject to' means 'caused by.'

[alpha]

No, look at an earlier post. You said that 'subject to' means 'caused by.'

"subject to" means follows that law. subject to causality means follows the law(s) of causality. consider this my revised statement.

better?

[Wyman]

No, look at an earlier post. You said that 'subject to' means 'caused by.'

"subject to" means follows that law. subject to causality means follows the law(s) of causality. consider this my revised statement.

better?

Forget randomness (one vague concept at a time) - why can't the law of cause and effect allow free will? The only over-arching law I can think of that could be called THE law of cause and effect is that something cannot come from nothing - everything has a cause.

To say that everything has a cause is not to say that everything is predetermined or that everything follows other laws. I think you are making an empirical observation rather than a logical one.