"freewill"

alpha · Post by **alpha** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:42 pm

i'm inclined to believe in determinism because logic dictates it.

no one can deny the existence of order in the universe, which necessitates the existence of causation. only strict cause and effect can produce order. the existence of -any- randomness is not only impossible, but would only lead to indeterminism.

"freewill" is either subject to this law, or it isn't. if it is, then it's not genuine freewill. if it isn't then it's subject to randomness (for the sake of argument), and therefor, isn't true freewill either.

i don't really see a third possibility. do you?

Hobbes' Choice · Post by **Hobbes' Choice** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:53 pm

alpha wrote:i'm inclined to believe in determinism because logic dictates it.

no one can deny the existence of order in the universe, which necessitates the existence of causation. only strict cause and effect can produce order. the existence of -any- randomness is not only impossible, but would only lead to indeterminism.

"freewill" is either subject to this law, or it isn't. if it is, then it's not genuine freewill. if it isn't then it's subject to randomness (for the sake of argument), and therefor, isn't true freewill either.

i don't really see a third possibility. do you?

I agree here, but others on the Forum do not. I'm not sure whether anyone is going to bite as this topic has been covered recently.

Skip · Post by **Skip** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:30 pm

Both freedom (see also 'liberty', 'autonomy' 'self-determination' etc.) and will (volition, intent, motivation) are human concepts. They were invented to describe and explain how we experience the initiation of an act performed by a human being. The same concepts are accurately attributed to other conscious life-forms, and also - unfortunately and inaccurately - to diverse inanimate objects and physical systems.

None of those things - freedom, will, concept, experience, explanation, initiation - actually exist in any tangible form. It's just a way of talking about things that we all experience and can therefore communicate to our kind. Like many other words for phenomena that we can talk about but cannot capture on film or confine in a cage, the idea of their existence excites a great deal of totally futile debate.

alpha · Post by **alpha** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:47 pm

@ skip,

i guess searching for cures to countless illnesses, is also futile, because we "cannot capture [them] on film or confine [them] in a cage, the idea of their existence excites a great deal of totally futile debate."

Skip · Post by **Skip** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:09 am

Pus, snot, blood and feces are all too tangible. Bacteria and viruses can be confined in Petri jars. Treatments and cures - and spectacular failures - have certainly been captured on film.
Discussing causes of illness and debating methods of treatment and/or prevention of illness have not been altogether futile: the discourse regarding such things has changed considerably over the last thousand years. Discourse regarding free will has not.

PS Capitals are you friends. Their deployment is not tantamount to capitalism.

A_Seagull · Post by **A_Seagull** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:34 pm

alpha wrote:i'm inclined to believe in determinism because logic dictates it.

no one can deny the existence of order in the universe, which necessitates the existence of causation. only strict cause and effect can produce order. the existence of -any- randomness is not only impossible, but would only lead to indeterminism.

"freewill" is either subject to this law, or it isn't. if it is, then it's not genuine freewill. if it isn't then it's subject to randomness (for the sake of argument), and therefor, isn't true freewill either.

i don't really see a third possibility. do you?

How do you think that belief in determinism would affect people's (your) decision making?

How do your think that belief in free-will would affect people's decision making?

Hobbes' Choice · Post by **Hobbes' Choice** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:34 pm

A_Seagull wrote:
alpha wrote:i'm inclined to believe in determinism because logic dictates it.

no one can deny the existence of order in the universe, which necessitates the existence of causation. only strict cause and effect can produce order. the existence of -any- randomness is not only impossible, but would only lead to indeterminism.

"freewill" is either subject to this law, or it isn't. if it is, then it's not genuine freewill. if it isn't then it's subject to randomness (for the sake of argument), and therefor, isn't true freewill either.

i don't really see a third possibility. do you?
How do you think that belief in determinism would affect people's (your) decision making?

How do your think that belief in free-will would affect people's decision making?

It might give one pause to consider mitigation in criminal cases. And people who accept free will might be harder on themselves when they find themselves unable to control their urges.
But generally people make decisions regardless of their position on this topic.

Skip · Post by **Skip** » Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:15 pm

Thought experiment:
See how long you can go without making a decision.

(Reaching for the channel commander counts as a decision! So does standing up to go to the bathroom.)

Impenitent · Post by **Impenitent** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:33 am

without freewill there is no responsibility

-Imp

artisticsolution · Post by **artisticsolution** » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:40 am

Impenitent wrote:without freewill there is no responsibility

-Imp

no freewill = no responsibility = no justice

no justice = no soul satisfying lynching parties

What's the fun in that?!

HexHammer · Post by **HexHammer** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:42 pm

alpha wrote:i'm inclined to believe in determinism because logic dictates it.

no one can deny the existence of order in the universe, which necessitates the existence of causation. only strict cause and effect can produce order. the existence of -any- randomness is not only impossible, but would only lead to indeterminism.

"freewill" is either subject to this law, or it isn't. if it is, then it's not genuine freewill. if it isn't then it's subject to randomness (for the sake of argument), and therefor, isn't true freewill either.

i don't really see a third possibility. do you?

This is pure nonsense and babble, it has nothing to do what shrinks and other scientists thinks about "free will".

Go get a clue.

Wyman · Post by **Wyman** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:34 pm

HexHammer wrote:
alpha wrote:i'm inclined to believe in determinism because logic dictates it.

no one can deny the [appearance of the] existence of order in the universe -why not? what if order comes out of chance - is that order or chance?, which necessitates the existence of causation. only strict cause and effect can produce order- what about 1,2,3,4 - are you saying that these numbers are not ordered, or that they cause one another?-. the existence of -any- randomness is not only impossible - what about quantum randomness or random number generators?, but would only lead to indeterminism -what if some parts are ordered and some are not?.

"freewill" is either subject to this lawYou haven't stated any laws - is 'order' a law? Is there a bunch of different kinds of 'orders?' - if so, is there an order to this set of orders?, or it isn't. if it is, then it's not genuine freewill - whay can't free will be subject to order - such as 'I have always chosen to put my right foot in my pants before my left foot. But today, I'm switching.'. if it isn't then it's subject to randomness (for the sake of argument), and therefor, isn't true freewill either. What does 'subject to randomness mean?' Is it anything like being caused by randomness? How is something caused by order or randomness? Is gravity order? Is it a cause? What causes gravity?

i don't really see a third possibility. do you? I see many possibilities; start with - 'is everything in the universe physical? 'What's the difference between a law and a pattern? How can you prove that what you think is a cause and effect is not just a correlation? '
This is pure nonsense and babble, it has nothing to do what shrinks and other scientists thinks about "free will".

Go get a clue.

alpha · Post by **alpha** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:34 pm

@ skip; please tolerate the fact that i don't use capitals; consider it a quirk.

alpha · Post by **alpha** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:37 pm

A_Seagull wrote:How do you think that belief in determinism would affect people's (your) decision making?

How do your think that belief in free-will would affect people's decision making?

belief in determinism can affect "decision making" in many ways; i can think of some if necessary.

belief in freewill...well, take a look at most people.

alpha · Post by **alpha** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:39 pm

Skip wrote:Thought experiment:
See how long you can go without making a decision.

(Reaching for the channel commander counts as a decision! So does standing up to go to the bathroom.)

we make plenty of decisions, but we have absolutely no true choice in making those "decisions".

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