Poppies

[Hobbes' Choice]

Of course I read the article or else I wouldn't presume to contribute to the discussion and I've read plenty of others like it over the years. All I'm saying is that this is not what I'm seeing because we don't have that sort of shit in my country and I'm glad of it.

Newsreaders here wear them. Our newspapers are full of pro-war shit, and we have traditionally been peaceful compared to Australia. Perhaps you just haven't noticed it, or it hasn't registered. It actually scares the crap out of me.

The UK has been traditionally peaceful compared to Australia!? You have got to be joking! You've dragged the whole Empire into your wars, idiot. And the fellow you've quoted clearly states that the "war-mongering" tradition of poppies that you beef about was of British origin. Hardly peaceful. In both world wars, Britain used troops around the Empire to do their dirty work. Gallipoli, Dieppe, even after the failure at Dunkirk. Hong Kong. Those are just a few.

It's not as if the soldiers of England and Wales were any different.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Our soldiers had a fair bit of bad luck with Churchill. He was also the architect of the Gallipoli debacle in WWI when Australia and New Zealand suffered the highest number of casualties per capita of any combatant nation in the entire war. And none of it had anything to do with us!!! It wasn't our fucking problem.

I don't think anyone really knows what the hell WW1 was about. Huge bucks for arms manufacturers who kept it going for as long as possible as far as I know.

A family squabble. Willy the the Kraut was always jealous of auntie Vicky.
The technical reason was a tangled web of alliance and counter alliance that was undone with a single bullet in Sarajevo.

[Dalek Prime]

carlin2.jpg

I would never wear a poppy - not because I do not honour the dead of the world wars, but EXACTLY BECAUSE I value their lives which our governments so recklessly threw away for selfish reasons and political gain.
Poppy wearing validates state murder and perpetuates the notion that such murder is acceptable and necessary.

I would wear a white poppy in support of those that refused to fight but were executed by the government for doing so.

Hallelujah. Someone who gets it. I think I'm in love with this post.

At least I don't cherry pick whom I remember.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

At least I don't cherry pick whom I remember.

That doesn't even relate to anything thing I've written. You just don't get my point at all.

[surreptitious57]

The poppy that grew on the killing fields of France and Belgium is a symbol of remembrance and not of glorification
I agree about the apparent compulsion to be seen wearing one especially on television so should only be worn if one
wants to not because one has to. And I like the choice between white and red though I make zero distinction myself
Churchill had many faults but is remembered for one specific thing and for that we who live here should be grateful

[vegetariantaxidermy]

The poppy that grew on the killing fields of France and Belgium is a symbol of remembrance and not of glorification
I agree about the apparent compulsion to be seen wearing one especially on television so should only be worn if one
wants to not because one has to. And I like the choice between white and red though I make zero distinction myself
Churchill had many faults but is remembered for one specific thing and for that we who live here should be grateful

Then why are we brain-washed with the idea that those people were all 'heroes' fighting for our 'freedom'? And don't deny that's the bullshit we are all fed. WW1 was an obscenity. I would happily wear a white poppy to show how disgusted I am with the complete waste of young lives. If the red poppy isn't about glorification then why do those who promote them get so enraged over the white poppy movement? The whole red poppy thing is nothing more than a cynical money-grubbing exercise, and pro-war propaganda. It might have started as some kind of symbol of remembrance, when people didn't know any better, but where does all the money go? It was originally supposed to support returned soldiers and widows. How many of those are still alive? NONE. Now they are pushing it as a way to show support to the thugs who went to Iraq and Afghanistan. The whole warmongering-disguised-as-empathy industry has got way out of hand.

[Obvious Leo]

The poppy that grew on the killing fields of France and Belgium is a symbol of remembrance and not of glorification
I agree about the apparent compulsion to be seen wearing one especially on television so should only be worn if one
wants to not because one has to. And I like the choice between white and red though I make zero distinction myself
Churchill had many faults but is remembered for one specific thing and for that we who live here should be grateful

Then why are we brain-washed with the idea that those people were all 'heroes' fighting for our 'freedom'? And don't deny that's the bullshit we are all fed. WW1 was an obscenity. I would happily wear a white poppy to show how disgusted I am with the complete waste of young lives. If the red poppy isn't about glorification then why do those who promote them get so enraged over the white poppy movement? The whole red poppy thing is nothing more than a cynical money-grubbing exercise, and pro-war propaganda. It might have started as some kind of symbol of remembrance, when people didn't know any better, but where does all the money go? It was originally supposed to support returned soldiers and widows. How many of those are still alive? NONE. Now they are pushing it as a way to show support to the thugs who went to Iraq and Afghanistan. The whole warmongering-disguised-as-empathy industry has got way out of hand.

It just goes to show that you're never too old to learn. I must be leading a sheltered life because I had absolutely no idea that all this controversy and bullshit was going on in the UK. If what you say is a fair reflection of what's going on, VT, then there's an old Aussie saying which might be appropriate to the scenario you're describing.

Give a Pommie a uniform and you've got him for life.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

The poppy that grew on the killing fields of France and Belgium is a symbol of remembrance and not of glorification
I agree about the apparent compulsion to be seen wearing one especially on television so should only be worn if one
wants to not because one has to. And I like the choice between white and red though I make zero distinction myself
Churchill had many faults but is remembered for one specific thing and for that we who live here should be grateful

Then why are we brain-washed with the idea that those people were all 'heroes' fighting for our 'freedom'? And don't deny that's the bullshit we are all fed. WW1 was an obscenity. I would happily wear a white poppy to show how disgusted I am with the complete waste of young lives. If the red poppy isn't about glorification then why do those who promote them get so enraged over the white poppy movement? The whole red poppy thing is nothing more than a cynical money-grubbing exercise, and pro-war propaganda. It might have started as some kind of symbol of remembrance, when people didn't know any better, but where does all the money go? It was originally supposed to support returned soldiers and widows. How many of those are still alive? NONE. Now they are pushing it as a way to show support to the thugs who went to Iraq and Afghanistan. The whole warmongering-disguised-as-empathy industry has got way out of hand.

It just goes to show that you're never too old to learn. I must be leading a sheltered life because I had absolutely no idea that all this controversy and bullshit was going on in the UK. If what you say is a fair reflection of what's going on, VT, then there's an old Aussie saying which might be appropriate to the scenario you're describing.

Give a Pommie a uniform and you've got him for life.

I find it hard to believe none of this happens in Australia. You don't have red poppy day? No pro-war propaganda? Come on. Has your country been living under a rock? You lot are always warring at the beck and call of your masters.

[Hobbes' Choice]

The poppy that grew on the killing fields of France and Belgium is a symbol of remembrance and not of glorification
I agree about the apparent compulsion to be seen wearing one especially on television so should only be worn if one
wants to not because one has to. And I like the choice between white and red though I make zero distinction myself
Churchill had many faults but is remembered for one specific thing and for that we who live here should be grateful

Then why are we brain-washed with the idea that those people were all 'heroes' fighting for our 'freedom'? And don't deny that's the bullshit we are all fed. WW1 was an obscenity. I would happily wear a white poppy to show how disgusted I am with the complete waste of young lives. If the red poppy isn't about glorification then why do those who promote them get so enraged over the white poppy movement? The whole red poppy thing is nothing more than a cynical money-grubbing exercise, and pro-war propaganda. It might have started as some kind of symbol of remembrance, when people didn't know any better, but where does all the money go? It was originally supposed to support returned soldiers and widows. How many of those are still alive? NONE. Now they are pushing it as a way to show support to the thugs who went to Iraq and Afghanistan. The whole warmongering-disguised-as-empathy industry has got way out of hand.

It just goes to show that you're never too old to learn. I must be leading a sheltered life because I had absolutely no idea that all this controversy and bullshit was going on in the UK. If what you say is a fair reflection of what's going on, VT, then there's an old Aussie saying which might be appropriate to the scenario you're describing.

Give a Pommie a uniform and you've got him for life.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

Sadly there is no controversy. There ought to be. I'd like a memorial for the conscripts, and those that volunteered too young to know what they were doing, many too young or not even qualified to vote for property reasons.
To honour the professional soldier, signed up in peacetime to do the work of the establishment is NOT worthy of my honour. The professional soldier is a professional killer first and foremost. When they are employed to do the job for which they are paid it is an indication of a failure of reason and good governance.
As individual soldiers following orders I cannot condemn nor blame a single one of them who puts their life in the line.
But to use a remembrance service designed to remember the millions that were killed (they did not 'give their lives") they were killed, and forced to kill, to boost patriotism and to justify continued violence is simply wrong.

I image you do the same same in Oz every 11/11? The empty rituals?

[Dalek Prime]

At least I don't cherry pick whom I remember.

That doesn't even relate to anything thing I've written. You just don't get my point at all.

I was speaking with Hobbes, him remembering just the pacifists.

[Obvious Leo]

I find it hard to believe none of this happens in Australia. You don't have red poppy day? No pro-war propaganda? Come on. Has your country been living under a rock? You lot are always warring at the beck and call of your masters.

I wouldn't say that none of it happens and it's not impossible that I'm the one who's living under a rock but I think I can honestly say that I've never seen anybody wearing a red poppy since my childhood. Anzac day remains a significant day of remembrance but in no way could it be described as an exercise in pro-war propaganda and if anything it's exactly the opposite.

I can't deny that our pollies are always quick to jump into any foreign adventures which the yanks deem necessary but they invariably do so against the majority will of the people and make themselves bloody unpopular as a result. Unfortunately Australia is tied into a rather obsolete but intricate mutual defence treaty with the US which our erstwhile leaders seem overly willing to interpret in favour of such foreign interventions but in my view the treaty does not require this of us at all. My own cynical view is that it's the multi-national corporations who are really calling the shots and our governments are merely kowtowing to the mercantile best interests of these globalised behemoths. You made a similar point yourself and I agree with it completely. Wars are good for business.

What the fuck is that supposed to mean?

Keep your shirt on, mate, it's just the cynical Aussie way of describing the Brits as rather too overtly patriotic, not to mention their fascination for pageantry and dress-ups. It's a harmless and even a rather affectionate jibe compared with the shit that gets heaped on to the yanks whose mindless patriotism strikes us as the epitome of vulgarity.

Sadly there is no controversy. There ought to be. I'd like a memorial for the conscripts, and those that volunteered too young to know what they were doing, many too young or not even qualified to vote for property reasons.
To honour the professional soldier, signed up in peacetime to do the work of the establishment is NOT worthy of my honour. The professional soldier is a professional killer first and foremost. When they are employed to do the job for which they are paid it is an indication of a failure of reason and good governance.
As individual soldiers following orders I cannot condemn nor blame a single one of them who puts their life in the line.
But to use a remembrance service designed to remember the millions that were killed (they did not 'give their lives") they were killed, and forced to kill, to boost patriotism and to justify continued violence is simply wrong.

I take no issue with a single word of this.

I image you do the same same in Oz every 11/11? The empty rituals?

11/11 is marked, yes, but it's not something we make a big fuss of and it certainly doesn't resonate all that strongly with most people. Anzac day is a different matter, but as I explained above it's very much become the antithesis of a pro-war propaganda day.

[Hobbes' Choice]

I image you do the same same in Oz every 11/11? The empty rituals?

11/11 is marked, yes, but it's not something we make a big fuss of and it certainly doesn't resonate all that strongly with most people. Anzac day is a different matter, but as I explained above it's very much become the antithesis of a pro-war propaganda day.

I'm glad to hear it.
However perceptions are often more about expectations than realities. As an Oz and I imagine a strict republican looking back to the old country tends to be coloured with your anti-imperialist goggles. And for anyone its hard to view the US has having any contrinution to an anti-war sentiment.
But wait - there is a small matter of history. Fact is there were more dissenters from the old country in WW1 that from OZ, and there are many socialists who were frog marched to the lines and tied up by their own men for target practice for German snipers.
Then you have to think about the historically unprecedented anti-Vietnam movement in the 60s and 70s in the USA,- possibly the most vociferous and largest anti-war movement in history.

[surreptitious57]

The poppy that grew on the killing fields of France and Belgium is a symbol of remembrance and not of glorification
I agree about the apparent compulsion to be seen wearing one especially on television so should only be worn if one
wants to not because one has to. And I like the choice between white and red though I make zero distinction myself
Churchill had many faults but is remembered for one specific thing and for that we who live here should be grateful

Then why are we brainwashed with the idea that those people were all heroes fighting for our freedom? And do not deny thats the bullshit we are
all fed. WW1 was an obscenity. I would happily wear a white poppy to show how disgusted I am with the complete waste of young lives. If the red poppy is not about glorification then why those who promote them get so enraged over the white poppy movement? The whole red poppy thing is nothing more than cynical money grubbing exercise and pro war propaganda. It might have started as some kind of symbol of remembrance when people did not know any better but where does all the money go? It was originally supposed to support returned soldiers and widows. How many
of those are still alive? NONE. Now they are pushing it as a way to show support to the thugs who went to Iraq and Afghanistan. The whole war mongering disguised as empathy industry has got way out of hand

World War One was entirely unnecessary. There was instability in the region before with no one power being dominant but it could have been easily avoided for those responsible for it were all related to each other. Kaiser Wilhelm and King George and Csar Nicholas were first cousins

If you would be happy to wear a white poppy then what exactly is stopping you ? If you are afraid of the reaction you will get then your rant is
meaningless as you do not have the courage of your convictions. So wear it with pride and stop worrying about what others might think of you

The Royal British Legion supports servicemen and women both past and present and all through the year as well so not just during
Remembrance. For this is what it does and most of it actually goes unnoticed and I know this for a fact because I am member of it

Every year on Remembrance Day on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month the country stops to think of all
those who have lost their lives in all conflicts. So it has absolutely nothing at all to do with the glorification of war. You might not
have agreed with Iraq and Afghanistan but you should blame politicians for that not soldiers. For they had no choice in the matter

[vegetariantaxidermy]

The poppy that grew on the killing fields of France and Belgium is a symbol of remembrance and not of glorification
I agree about the apparent compulsion to be seen wearing one especially on television so should only be worn if one
wants to not because one has to. And I like the choice between white and red though I make zero distinction myself
Churchill had many faults but is remembered for one specific thing and for that we who live here should be grateful

Then why are we brainwashed with the idea that those people were all heroes fighting for our freedom? And do not deny thats the bullshit we are
all fed. WW1 was an obscenity. I would happily wear a white poppy to show how disgusted I am with the complete waste of young lives. If the red poppy is not about glorification then why those who promote them get so enraged over the white poppy movement? The whole red poppy thing is nothing more than cynical money grubbing exercise and pro war propaganda. It might have started as some kind of symbol of remembrance when people did not know any better but where does all the money go? It was originally supposed to support returned soldiers and widows. How many
of those are still alive? NONE. Now they are pushing it as a way to show support to the thugs who went to Iraq and Afghanistan. The whole war mongering disguised as empathy industry has got way out of hand

World War One was entirely unnecessary. There was instability in the region before with no one power being dominant but it could have been easily avoided for those responsible for it were all related to each other. Kaiser Wilhelm and King George and Csar Nicholas were first cousins

If you would be happy to wear a white poppy then what exactly is stopping you ? If you are afraid of the reaction you will get then your rant is
meaningless as you do not have the courage of your convictions. So wear it with pride and stop worrying about what others might think of you

The Royal British Legion supports servicemen and women both past and present and all through the year as well so not just during
Remembrance. For this is what it does and most of it actually goes unnoticed and I know this for a fact because I am member of it

Every year on Remembrance Day on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month the country stops to think of all
those who have lost their lives in all conflicts. So it has absolutely nothing at all to do with the glorification of war. You might not
have agreed with Iraq and Afghanistan but you should blame politicians for that not soldiers. For they had no choice in the matter

You mean it supplies subsidized alcohol to warmongering old fucks. I didn't know you had conscription. Of course it claims to 'support' Iraq and Afghanistan mercenaries. It knows it would be out of business when people finally twigged that pretty much all the world war soldiers are dead. The ME soldiers are all well-paid volunteer thugs who enjoy killing people. What 'support' do they need that the Govt. doesn't give them already?
When are people going to wake up and realize that it's just a business, a huge corporation in fact, like the Salvation Army, both of which make billions (yes billions) out of portraying themselves as benevolent, caring charities. You make a lot of assumptions. White poppy sellers get abused by warmongers, which is probably why there are so few of them. I haven't seen any in my town. War Associations obviously feel very threatened by them.

[surreptitious57]

You are so brave sitting there behind your computer but unless you actually go out and buy a white poppy as I have said
you have no courage. Not that you should require any in order to purchase one but in your case apparently so given how
much of a big deal you are making over it. So I tell you what. As soon as I see anyone selling them I shall go and buy one
myself. Then you have no reason not to do likewise. They will be on sale next month so after that you have zero excuse