Mill, Liberty & Euthanasia

[Philosophy Now]

Simon Clarke argues that deciding when to die is a matter of individuality.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/110/Mi ... Euthanasia

[Dalek Prime]

I don't have to read this to agree. I am now visiting with my father, who is near the end. I do not wish to end like that. Bring back barbiturates. They are humane. I'd rather have those by my side, than all the morphine in the world.

The transition is what I fear most. There is no reason I must be made to suffer in the end, to satisfy society and it's policy makers.

[Obvious Leo]

My thoughts are with you at a difficult time, Dalek, having been through the same ordeal with both my mother and my sister. As I may have mentioned to you before I agree with the general thrust of the principles referred to in this article but object strongly to the misuse of language. Although I suspect that I may be fighting a losing battle on this point I emphatically do not agree that euthanasia and assisted suicide are synonymous terms and I am horrified that these two notions are routinely conflated in the public debate.

[Dalek Prime]

My thoughts are with you at a difficult time, Dalek, having been through the same ordeal with both my mother and my sister. As I may have mentioned to you before I agree with the general thrust of the principles referred to in this article but object strongly to the misuse of language. Although I suspect that I may be fighting a losing battle on this point I emphatically do not agree that euthanasia and assisted suicide are synonymous terms and I am horrified that these two notions are routinely conflated in the public debate.

I hear you, Leo. I do assure you that I'm aware of the distinction, though I agree with both.

Thank you for the thought. A lot going on in my head at the moment... a lifetime of it.

[Hobbes' Choice]

I don't have to read this to agree. I am now visiting with my father, who is near the end. I do not wish to end like that. Bring back barbiturates. They are humane. I'd rather have those by my side, than all the morphine in the world.

The transition is what I fear most. There is no reason I must be made to suffer in the end, to satisfy society and it's policy makers.

Agreed.

[Hobbes' Choice]

My thoughts are with you at a difficult time, Dalek, having been through the same ordeal with both my mother and my sister. As I may have mentioned to you before I agree with the general thrust of the principles referred to in this article but object strongly to the misuse of language. Although I suspect that I may be fighting a losing battle on this point I emphatically do not agree that euthanasia and assisted suicide are synonymous terms and I am horrified that these two notions are routinely conflated in the public debate.

The words of words is about horses for courses. Which one do you consider to be the most negative is one question, the other is based on your view about the right to choose the manner of your death and this informs which of those phrases you use and think appropriate.
The phrases are conflated as they have different associations for different people. It like the choice between "unborn child"; "Baby in the womb"; "Foetus"; or "excised matter".

Euthanasia has attracted much negative publicity, and is associated with the act of killing monsters at birth whose life would be nothing but protracted pain and death before maturity. Farmers do it all the time. There is also an dark association with Nazi Germany and the liquidation of disabled and the mentally ill.
But literally all it means is killing for good. The Greek hoplites talk of thanatos kalos, and it was their wish to receive a good death in battle. Eu-thanos is about dying well in a peaceful way. Often the job cannot be achieved by the self; either because you do not have the skill; find it difficult to do it alone; or you might have lost enough of your mind to complete the job. Assistance might be needed, and this would lead to euthanasia. There is no reason the word should have negative assocations.

[Dalek Prime]

So here I am, sitting with my father. He doesn't know where he is, he's scared, I'm certain of that, and can't take being moved or touched. I'm trying to find things to babble about to him, but if it registers, or if he even wants me to talk, I just don't know. I feel I can only witness him. I'm helpless to do a thing. Yet the nurse tells me his vitals are strong. A good thing for most, I suppose. But for a man who otherwise is suffering so? It's hard to deal with. Because of physical distance, I was spared the death of my mother and brother. Not so with my father. I wonder why my sister thought it would be a good thing for me to be here to witness this?

Sorry if I'm babbling. I'm just writing my thoughts. And I'm seeing my own future. My father and I look very similar. And I know that these words will be floating somewhere, in the blink of an eye, as I am lying there myself, alone.

Antinatalism may stop future suffering, but it does nothing for these existents, now.

[artisticsolution]

That's terrible Dalek. I am sorry you have to go through this. I had a similar experience with my cousin and I couldn't take it. I vowed I would never do it again except for people who are ultra close to me. I think that is why I chose not to allow many people into my life. I know it's selfish but fuck it...I can't take it.

I guess all one can do in your situation is to imagine what they would want from another at the time of death. I can honestly say I would not want many to see me like that and would prefer they remember the person I was. Although, I would want one person who loved me to keep me company until I died...just because it might be a scary thing. Perhaps to reminiscence to get my mind off death or loneliness?

Is your sis by your side? Can you talk about things or do you not have a close relationship? Can your dad talk? Perhaps ask him to share a story about himself or the most important thing that ever happened to him in his life?

I hate that I am no help...I just am horrible in these situations. I think that is what I hate the most about death and/or dying...well 2 things...that I am helpless and that my life did not matter.

[Arditezza]

Dalek Prime,
It's a very hard thing you are going through right now, and I am sorry that you have to go through it. I hope that your father suffers the least amount possible and that he finds peace from pain for himself soon. The worst feelings I've ever had were watching people suffer, and I do it on a regular basis because of laws and people fearing that somehow the people who choose to end the suffering will end up punished for all eternity after doing so. I am a Palliative Care Nurse (Hospice Nurse) and it is my job to make the remaining days of my patients the most comfortable for the patient and their families. I also am a licensed social worker, so I spend a lot of my time helping the patient and their families make peace and communicate as much as possible so that everyone's needs are met. I am a very peaceful person, people are at ease with me and I have very wide shoulders that can handle a lot of burdens and conflicts. I don't know why, but I feel like my purpose in life is to care for others and here I am. I think maybe you should say all the things to your father that you have always wanted to say but never did. Allow him to talk to you if he is still able, and open your heart to the words he has for you. Even if you think he cannot hear you, it will do you good to talk and express yourself no matter how positive or negative the sentiments might be. Remember the good things about him and touch and talk to him as much as you can.

As I watch people suffer, many of them would wish for less suffering for themselves and their families. I believe that any choices should be discussed with the patient and the family so that there is peace when making the transition. All voices should be heard and any feelings should be discussed. I often find that patients and their families are on the same page in what they wish to do, and I have had some patients move to other states or in one case, fly to Europe to where euthanasia is legal and done in a very humane manner. It should not be that difficult for people to stop suffering, especially when there is no hope left for them to live a pain free and happy life. I would argue that it is inhumane to sit idly by and watch someone suffer who wishes to die and not do anything. I wish there was more I could do by my patients, but I am bound by law and would not risk not being there for my patients. It's a very sad thing some times for me, and I struggle all the time wanting to be able to do the right thing. The topic of euthanasia is often talked about in the office and in discussion groups I attend.

I believe that the only reason that euthanasia isn't more widely accepted is due to the misguided paternalism of religious influence, and politics that doesn't see it's people as individuals, only as the vox populii. Each individual, and their situation should be evaluated at their family level (if possible and appropriate) and discussed with people who specialize in social work so that the suffering is at the smallest degree possible for all involved. It is not societies right to decide for each individual when is the right time for them to go, or just how much suffering an individual must endure before their reach their limit. My body and mind, are not the property of the state, and should not be treated as such. The state had nothing to do with my birth, and should not decide when I get to die.

[Dalek Prime]

That's terrible Dalek. I am sorry you have to go through this. I had a similar experience with my cousin and I couldn't take it. I vowed I would never do it again except for people who are ultra close to me. I think that is why I chose not to allow many people into my life. I know it's selfish but fuck it...I can't take it.

I guess all one can do in your situation is to imagine what they would want from another at the time of death. I can honestly say I would not want many to see me like that and would prefer they remember the person I was. Although, I would want one person who loved me to keep me company until I died...just because it might be a scary thing. Perhaps to reminiscence to get my mind off death or loneliness?

Is your sis by your side? Can you talk about things or do you not have a close relationship? Can your dad talk? Perhaps ask him to share a story about himself or the most important thing that ever happened to him in his life?

I hate that I am no help...I just am horrible in these situations. I think that is what I hate the most about death and/or dying...well 2 things...that I am helpless and that my life did not matter.

Thanks AS. He has no idea I'm here, and didn't even want his lips moistened so he could talk, or whisper, rather. No, my sister will be by shortly. We are not close enough to share. I'll continue in a bit. I have to check in.

[Dalek Prime]

Dalek Prime,
It's a very hard thing you are going through right now, and I am sorry that you have to go through it. I hope that your father suffers the least amount possible and that he finds peace from pain for himself soon. The worst feelings I've ever had were watching people suffer, and I do it on a regular basis because of laws and people fearing that somehow the people who choose to end the suffering will end up punished for all eternity after doing so. I am a Palliative Care Nurse (Hospice Nurse) and it is my job to make the remaining days of my patients the most comfortable for the patient and their families. I also am a licensed social worker, so I spend a lot of my time helping the patient and their families make peace and communicate as much as possible so that everyone's needs are met. I am a very peaceful person, people are at ease with me and I have very wide shoulders that can handle a lot of burdens and conflicts. I don't know why, but I feel like my purpose in life is to care for others and here I am. I think maybe you should say all the things to your father that you have always wanted to say but never did. Allow him to talk to you if he is still able, and open your heart to the words he has for you. Even if you think he cannot hear you, it will do you good to talk and express yourself no matter how positive or negative the sentiments might be. Remember the good things about him and touch and talk to him as much as you can.

As I watch people suffer, many of them would wish for less suffering for themselves and their families. I believe that any choices should be discussed with the patient and the family so that there is peace when making the transition. All voices should be heard and any feelings should be discussed. I often find that patients and their families are on the same page in what they wish to do, and I have had some patients move to other states or in one case, fly to Europe to where euthanasia is legal and done in a very humane manner. It should not be that difficult for people to stop suffering, especially when there is no hope left for them to live a pain free and happy life. I would argue that it is inhumane to sit idly by and watch someone suffer who wishes to die and not do anything. I wish there was more I could do by my patients, but I am bound by law and would not risk not being there for my patients. It's a very sad thing some times for me, and I struggle all the time wanting to be able to do the right thing. The topic of euthanasia is often talked about in the office and in discussion groups I attend.

I believe that the only reason that euthanasia isn't more widely accepted is due to the misguided paternalism of religious influence, and politics that doesn't see it's people as individuals, only as the vox populii. Each individual, and their situation should be evaluated at their family level (if possible and appropriate) and discussed with people who specialize in social work so that the suffering is at the smallest degree possible for all involved. It is not societies right to decide for each individual when is the right time for them to go, or just how much suffering an individual must endure before their reach their limit. My body and mind, are not the property of the state, and should not be treated as such. The state had nothing to do with my birth, and should not decide when I get to die.

Words cannot express how grateful I am for yours and others words of care. Whether theist or no, please accept this in the vein it's meant; bless you all.

[Arditezza]

Words cannot express how grateful I am for yours and others words of care. Whether theist or no, please accept this in the vein it's meant; bless you all.

I do appreciate this sentiment very much, regardless the origin. I wish you peace in this journey, and wish you all the best in this time of sorrow.

Death is an inevitability to life, you cannot have one without the other. We try to make the passage into this life as gentle and comforting as possible, making a baby as comfortable as parents and caregivers can and supplying all their needs until they can independently search out comfort for themselves. Life is a journey that has a lot of trials and suffering, it's good and bad times and it's failures and triumphs that should all be remembered as part of the legacy that is you. The dramatic bits will always be more memorable, and the end of your life should not be traumatic when you no longer can independently search out comfort for yourself. We should ease the dying into the same kind of peace and comfort that was part of life at their birth. With no pain or discomfort to distract their wearied mind, and with the most compassion possible. It's a kindness we should be able to grant to those who are suffering and have no possibility of recovery. Forcing people to suffer with ravaged bodies that are incapable of the liberties and freedoms that life has to offer when they do not want to live, is not compassionate. You cannot judge or hope to ken what is in a persons mind as they plod through their burdens and existence. What matter is it to you how they live if the life they live is one of torment, locked in a body that does not allow them to live as they see fit?

What purpose to society does making someone live as they do not wish to live have?

When I was younger, I had a friend who suffered from severe mental illness. His schizophrenia made him violent, and meds would only work for so long before the chemistry changed and he was back to the scared, ragey, and often destructive ways of his addled mind. This went on for 20 years, in cycles where he would be in and out of institutions, in and out of stupors or psychotic episodes, hurting friends and family and otherwise wrecking his life. In moments of clarity, he would be so sad at the suffering and destruction he had caused that he would not be able to reconnect with family because of his own guilt and shame and the pain of the hurt his family and friend has suffered. When he was on the right medications that were working, he wrote a living will and had a legal DNR put on record, but in the end and completely mentally competent he chose to end his life on his own terms. He no longer wanted to suffer, he no longer wanted to hurt others, he no longer wanted to be a burden and he wanted to leave this earth being able to ask forgiveness and find peace with others. Not one person at his memorial service felt anger at him, or was angry at his actions. He was no longer suffering and locked in a body that had no hope of liberty and freedom.

There is some wisdom to the idea in utilitarianism that says that a life that takes everything, is filled with suffering and would free up the resources if it was allowed to end. While it does not sound like compassion because of this weird idea in modernity that every life contributes no matter what is going on, and the society and it's rules trump the individual as a person. The kind of paternalism we have today because of these ideas is destructive in nature and goes against every natural instinct and idea that we have within ourselves if we let go of the religion, the written laws, and the idea that we are more important than the individual who is suffering. The raw compassionate mind stripped of those things, looks at someone who is suffering and will never recover and wants to lend aid to alleviate the suffering.

[Dalek Prime]

Words cannot express how grateful I am for yours and others words of care. Whether theist or no, please accept this in the vein it's meant; bless you all.

I do appreciate this sentiment very much, regardless the origin. I wish you peace in this journey, and wish you all the best in this time of sorrow.

Death is an inevitability to life, you cannot have one without the other. We try to make the passage into this life as gentle and comforting as possible, making a baby as comfortable as parents and caregivers can and supplying all their needs until they can independently search out comfort for themselves. Life is a journey that has a lot of trials and suffering, it's good and bad times and it's failures and triumphs that should all be remembered as part of the legacy that is you. The dramatic bits will always be more memorable, and the end of your life should not be traumatic when you no longer can independently search out comfort for yourself. We should ease the dying into the same kind of peace and comfort that was part of life at their birth. With no pain or discomfort to distract their wearied mind, and with the most compassion possible. It's a kindness we should be able to grant to those who are suffering and have no possibility of recovery. Forcing people to suffer with ravaged bodies that are incapable of the liberties and freedoms that life has to offer when they do not want to live, is not compassionate. You cannot judge or hope to ken what is in a persons mind as they plod through their burdens and existence. What matter is it to you how they live if the life they live is one of torment, locked in a body that does not allow them to live as they see fit?

What purpose to society does making someone live as they do not wish to live have?

When I was younger, I had a friend who suffered from severe mental illness. His schizophrenia made him violent, and meds would only work for so long before the chemistry changed and he was back to the scared, ragey, and often destructive ways of his addled mind. This went on for 20 years, in cycles where he would be in and out of institutions, in and out of stupors or psychotic episodes, hurting friends and family and otherwise wrecking his life. In moments of clarity, he would be so sad at the suffering and destruction he had caused that he would not be able to reconnect with family because of his own guilt and shame and the pain of the hurt his family and friend has suffered. When he was on the right medications that were working, he wrote a living will and had a legal DNR put on record, but in the end and completely mentally competent he chose to end his life on his own terms. He no longer wanted to suffer, he no longer wanted to hurt others, he no longer wanted to be a burden and he wanted to leave this earth being able to ask forgiveness and find peace with others. Not one person at his memorial service felt anger at him, or was angry at his actions. He was no longer suffering and locked in a body that had no hope of liberty and freedom.

There is some wisdom to the idea in utilitarianism that says that a life that takes everything, is filled with suffering and would free up the resources if it was allowed to end. While it does not sound like compassion because of this weird idea in modernity that every life contributes no matter what is going on, and the society and it's rules trump the individual as a person. The kind of paternalism we have today because of these ideas is destructive in nature and goes against every natural instinct and idea that we have within ourselves if we let go of the religion, the written laws, and the idea that we are more important than the individual who is suffering. The raw compassionate mind stripped of those things, looks at someone who is suffering and will never recover and wants to lend aid to alleviate the suffering.

My brother had taken his life back in 2004. We were close, and I understood.

We are meeting with a worker, and if he survives the immediate, my father will have a place in palliative care. There is a DNR, as per his wishes. I.will be working on a living will for myself when I return home.

[spike]

Perhaps this article should have been entitled Liberty and Enthusiasm

[Obvious Leo]

I am a Palliative Care Nurse

My wife has worked for most of her professional life in the field of palliative care, although in recent years mostly as an educator, so the issues surrounding this question are very familiar to me. They are not simple issues and some of the "one size fits all" opinions which are touted in the public debate reflect both a want of sensitivity as well as a blatant lack of medical knowledge in the wider community when it comes to matters of terminal illness.

My sister died only a few months ago and my wife and I both travelled overseas to spend the last couple of weeks of her life with her. This was done at her request and we both regarded it as a signature privilege to share this final experience with her. This may sound somewhat macabre to many people but to us it was a most beautiful and natural thing to do and an experience I shall treasure for the rest of my life because for the past 40 years we had only ever got together a few times a year for perhaps a few days at a time. Elly was very ill but she was in full command of her capable mind and held no fears about her impending end. Although I indulged in some private moments of grief through this period it was mostly a time of joy and celebration when we were able to share in the exultation of an honourable life which had been meaningfully lived.

Elly believed in god but she regarded this faith as a strictly personal matter and she was not a particularly religious person. She never once considered ending her own life before its natural conclusion but she was perfectly sympathetic to the idea that others in such a situation should have every right to do so and that her god would not judge them harshly for such a choice. However she did say that had she chosen this option it would absolutely have to have been an act that she undertook herself alone and not one which she could ask any other person to participate in. This was her personal ethic and I both understood it and respected her for it but I also shared her opinion that one's personal ethics in such matters cannot be conflated with a social or legal policy. There are simply some aspects of the human journey where the law has no authority to intrude and as a humanist I regard the right to die with dignity as every much a human right as the right to live with dignity.

I held her hand as she took her last breath. I asked the god I stopped believing in at the age of 14 to take her into his heart and I didn't feel like a hypocrite for doing so because this was her business and none of mine.

Stand strong, Dalek.