Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?

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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: posted about this up-thread already, but here's another take

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

henry quirk wrote:"Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?"

If you have the big stick, you can attempt just about anything (take people's shit and keep it, give it to the poor, give it to the rich, toss it in the ocean, etc.)...there's absolutely no need to appeal to 'rights' ('cept as a tool to convince the gullible to not defend themselves, to give over with the goods willingly...that is: convince a fool that it's 'right' he should support another and he will, without as much as a peep).

Again: 'right' or 'rights' got nuthin' to do with nuthin'.
It is an economic necessity that has accompanied civilisation from the outset. All major civilisations had a dole system.
There is a good reason for this. Civilisation takes people away from their traditional means of subsistence, and forces people to specialise in jobs, rather then have diverse trades as once they had. In civilisation people become part of a machine. The machine is geared to push money to the top where a small minority control the resources. The machine changes and people are left without the means of survival and for each cog in the machine there is a period of readjustment. Often civilisation fails to provide work for masses of people, and crime grows.
Traditionally places such as Rome provided Bread and Circuses to make their population's life liveable. The alternative was unrest leading to revolt and eventual overthrown of the government. In the US the method is prison. The media promises everything in advertising whilst the economy provides nothing for millions of people. The result is riots and swelling prison populations.
Civilisation has always polarised wealth. This tendency to inequality leaves the people who create the wealth at the mercy of those who gather and collect the wealth.
Taxation is one way to help redress the inbalance. This happens to work very well, as without a steady demand from the bottom the economy has a tendency to dry up towards the top. If people are out of work because there are no jobs then there is less money circulating where it matters, and only money circulating around the top. The economy dies from the bottom up as there is no point making things that no one can afford to buy, so with each closure the potential exists for more closures and so on.

Your tendency to resent taxation is childish. That money is not yours. It belongs to the state, and they have to right to disperse it as they se fit. If you don't like it, join the political process and learn a bot more about economics.
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Re: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?

Post by henry quirk »

Hobbes,

Where do you get the notion I resent taxes?

I'm all for paying for the services and products I use, no matter where these products and services come from (private provider or the instrument/conduit of government/proxies).

What I resent are ill-spent tax dollars. We - you and me - can go 'round and 'round, I'm sure, about what is a good investment of tax dollars and what isn't.

I'm thinkin' we - you and me - could have at each other for pages and pages, in this thread and others, and, in the end, neither of us would be moved from our current positions.

*shrug*

In any event, nuthin' you've posted counters my position in this thread, that being: it is by way of the stick alone that any one lays claim to another's property or money or whatever. Gibberish about 'rights' (natural or human or whatever) is a waste of time.

On the subject of civillization: your description of it as machine is, from my place, wrong, and your acceptance of the machine as civillized is wrong-headed.

The machine of the collective is just that, a machine. The reduction of the individual to bit, piece, or part is not civillized.

Civillization, a rare event, is simply the on-going result of at least two persons agreeing to not steal from one another, agreeing to not injure one another, agreeing to not kill one another.

Civillization is the agreement between two or more to each mind his own business and to keep his hands to himself.

I find easy to mind my own bee's wax and to keep my mitts to myself (i got no interest in how another lives or in his property).

Pity the rest of you find it difficult to impossible to do anything but wallow in envy, then dress that envy up in the finery of philosophical hooey or historical malarky as justification for taking up the stick (do us all a favor: stop preaching and just get on with looting and purging...stop justifyin' and 'DO').

Fortunate for me that I also find it easy to self-defend...the joy of being primitive, violent, a throwback.

No worries, though...there are very few of my kind about...the world belongs to you 'new men'...when we deviants are dead and buried, I'm certain the communitarian utopia you all crave will come to be.

And: if it doesn't, you'll have no one to blame but yourselves.

'nuff said.

#

Raw,

Simply, there is no right to anything, by any one, except as one (alone or in concert with others) can assert and defend. If you feel strongly that rich folks have ripped you off, then - yeah - you should seek redress (alone or in concert with others). Be the best damned revolutionary you can be.

From where I stand, however, such rainbow chasin' is best left to the young (which I am not), the idealistic (which I am not), the envious (which I am not), and those who wish to rule rather than be ruled (me: I don't play well with others, don't take or give direction well, just wanna be left alone).

So: while you and yours 'occupy' or whatever, I'll just sit back, sip coffee, and watch (after cleaning and loading my shotgun...I ain't gettin' burned out or beat down by any of you zealots [from either, or any, side]).

'nuff said.
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Re: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

henry quirk wrote:Hobbes,

Where do you get the notion I resent taxes?

I'm all for paying for the services and products I use, no matter where these products and services come from (private provider or the instrument/conduit of government/proxies).

What I resent are ill-spent tax dollars. We - you and me - can go 'round and 'round, I'm sure, about what is a good investment of tax dollars and what isn't.

I'm thinkin' we - you and me - could have at each other for pages and pages, in this thread and others, and, in the end, neither of us would be moved from our current positions.

*shrug*

In any event, nuthin' you've posted counters my position in this thread, that being: it is by way of the stick alone that any one lays claim to another's property or money or whatever. Gibberish about 'rights' (natural or human or whatever) is a waste of time.

On the subject of civillization: your description of it as machine is, from my place, wrong, and your acceptance of the machine as civillized is wrong-headed.

The machine of the collective is just that, a machine. The reduction of the individual to bit, piece, or part is not civillized.

Civillization, a rare event, is simply the on-going result of at least two persons agreeing to not steal from one another, agreeing to not injure one another, agreeing to not kill one another.

Civillization is the agreement between two or more to each mind his own business and to keep his hands to himself.

I find easy to mind my own bee's wax and to keep my mitts to myself (i got no interest in how another lives or in his property).

Pity the rest of you find it difficult to impossible to do anything but wallow in envy, then dress that envy up in the finery of philosophical hooey or historical malarky as justification for taking up the stick (do us all a favor: stop preaching and just get on with looting and purging...stop justifyin' and 'DO').

Fortunate for me that I also find it easy to self-defend...the joy of being primitive, violent, a throwback.

No worries, though...there are very few of my kind about...the world belongs to you 'new men'...when we deviants are dead and buried, I'm certain the communitarian utopia you all crave will come to be.

And: if it doesn't, you'll have no one to blame but yourselves.

'nuff said.
.
As a metaphor it works fine. because like all machines, they tend to have some things in common.
You totally mis the point.
The co-operative predates civilisation by thousands of years. In fact even chimps have society. And there is tacit agreement to behave in certain ways within the group. Hunter gatherer have co-existed in groups for millions of years (depending on how you define human) before 'civilisation'.
But civilisation is a specialised form of society which focuses activity away from individual subsistence to specialisation. This is the point you miss totally. The feedback mechanisms that govern the number of pig farmers, leather workers, bread makers, sportsmen, soldiers etc etc... that are required at any one time are slow, and so the main negative consequence of civilising people is that there will always be transience and unemployment. Poverty is more or less guaranteed. This is either exported to other countries or hits hard at home.
The way money is organised, if under the complete control of the rich, will only favour the rich. This is the situation that we are facing at the moment. Democracy is supposed to be a solution to inequality, but negative propaganda from the rich-owned media portrays even that as a negative force, and "market forces", it is pretended will solve all problems. Fuck that.
~Prima facie, there is no reason why a manager should get 100 times more than a nurse; nor that a racing driver or pop star should get 1000 times a manager. Boo hoo the world is not fair. But by sitting by and doing nothing whilst people in your own country starve is reprehensible. These are the people that built the country, and deserve to be protected in the hard times.
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Re: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?

Post by bobevenson »

It is improper for the government to treat people differently, period!
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Post by henry quirk »

Hobbes,

As I say 'we could have at each other for pages and pages, in this thread and others, and, in the end, neither of us would be moved from our current positions'.

Mebbe you have time for that, but I don't (nor do I have the interest).

So: '(If) there is no reason why a manager should get 100 times more than a nurse' then get up offa your butt and do sumthin' about it....go march or 'occupy' or (as I say) loot and purge.

Go be the irresistible force (along with Raw). Just beware of those immovable objects.

Good luck.
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Re: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?

Post by raw_thought »

"loot and purge"??? Like Wall Street?
Nah, I just want the money the elites stole from me and you.
And distribute it to those that earned it.
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Re: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?

Post by raw_thought »

bobevenson wrote:It is improper for the government to treat people differently, period!
Ummmm
So it is immoral to save a child from death??? Instead the government should be what you call "fair"???? Ummm ever heard of triage????? It is called being an adult and prioritizing.
PS: Triage is what they do in an emergency room. If you went to the ER with a heart attack and I went there with a broken arm, you would go first.
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Post by henry quirk »

"I just want the money the elites stole from me and you."

Mebbe those elites hoodwinked you, but nuthin' was stolen from me.

Mebbe, you wanna elaborate a bit on the nature of the theft before you play the collectivist 'they've screwed us all!' card.

#

"loot and purge"??? Like Wall Street?

Sure, if the example works for you.

Understand though: the heroes of the Left oversaw/oversee equally pernicious looting and purging...at least the wall street folks are honest about what they do...no dressing up of their greed up with horse shit philosophy or economic theory.
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Re: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?

Post by raw_thought »

Wall Street stole billions and destroyed the economy. That is theft.
I simple want to go back to the work ethic and away from the gambler ethic.
Also the elite have stolen so much that 400 individuals own half the nations wealth. Are you saying they work literally billions of times more then we do????
We create the wealth.The elite take it and contribute nothing to the economy.
We dont need them!
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Re: Do we have the right to tax people in order to help the poor?

Post by raw_thought »

If you want a particular,
Banks were unregulated. They were allowed to sell mortgages to investors. This was allowed because they own congress. The banks then had the government agency label all their loans AAA. This convinced investors to buy those mortgages from the bank. However, now the banks gave out mortgages to anyone because the investor took all the risk. When the house buyer could not pay,that started a snowball effect that destroyed the ecomomy. Then we the tax payer bailed out the criminals.
That is just one example. You really should keep up on the news.
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Re:

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

henry quirk wrote:Hobbes,

As I say 'we could have at each other for pages and pages, in this thread and others, and, in the end, neither of us would be moved from our current positions'.

Mebbe you have time for that, but I don't (nor do I have the interest).

So: '(If) there is no reason why a manager should get 100 times more than a nurse' then get up offa your butt and do sumthin' about it....go march or 'occupy' or (as I say) loot and purge.

Go be the irresistible force (along with Raw). Just beware of those immovable objects.

Good luck.
When you give up on learning you give up on life.
Run along now!
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Post by henry quirk »

Raw,

I know you feel ripped off by the rich folks, but I don't, so...*shrug*

#

Hobbes,

As soon as you have sumthin' to teach me, I'll be glad to attend class, till then...*shrug*
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Re:

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

henry quirk wrote:Raw,

I know you feel ripped off by the rich folks, but I don't, so...*shrug*

#

Hobbes,

As soon as you have sumthin' to teach me, I'll be glad to attend class, till then...*shrug*
I could teach you not to shrug.
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Post by henry quirk »

No, you could try...and fail.
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Re:

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

henry quirk wrote:No, you could try...and fail.
Well you didn't shrug this time.
*shrug*
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