Religions are fairy tales for adults. Should we encourage them to grow up?

[Greatest I am]

The Abrahamic cults have been the majority in the West forever.
Ignore that they are the cause of homophobia and misogyny in the West all you like.
Seems that you do not care that the women in your family are second class.
You must be a theist.
Regards
DL

You stupidly assume that I treat the females in my family badly, nothing could be further from the truth. Just proves what a bigot you are. A bigot is a stupid person who believes that everyone is exactly the way they think they are

See what I mean about words? I appreciate the linguistic shift in this exchange. From systemic ideological discrimination (true) in entire cultures (true), and Doc takes exception to the generalization - without denying or refuting the main point. GIA moves in to a personal accusation of "not caring" that the main point is true (his concern or lack of is not established). The Doc shifts it to whether he "treats the females in my family badly."
Not only is the question still unanswered, but the issue has become one of undefined subjective judgment. Good or bad treatment of the women in one family is hardly relevant to the structure of a whole society - and we have no idea what he considers good or bad treatment of second-class citizens. Many slave-owners didn't use the whip; many would have said "We treated them like family!" which may have been true in some households, but didn't change the status of Africans in America.

I am not one to analyse like you do but well done.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

"God is Dead; but given the way of men, there may still be caves for thousands of years in which his shadow will be shown. And we — we still have to vanquish his shadow, too."

---Rev. Nietzsche
______________________________

So I do not want to kill all religions but just encourage them to be more moral, tolerant and give equality to women and gays.

A thousand years is a long time. A dying creature is anything but 'dead' from a biological perspective: rather that corpse lights up from within and instead of one light there are a thousand lights as each cell decomposes.

What Dennett is proposing - largely - is it not nearly exactly what the Protestant Reformation initiated? Is that not largely what has been created by Teutonic Greco-Roman Europe? The revolutions in thought of the last 500 years - are they not an intimate aspect of a spiritual revolution?

I would ask some questions, though, about the terms 'moral', 'tolerant', and 'equal'. It is pretty difficult to decide what moral values shall be ascendent. 'Tolerance' is a loaded, politicised word that also has a debilitating, effeminate aspect. And there is no doubt that the notion of equality is often a corrupt concept.

Additionally, to propose that homosexuality - its closeted variety - be accepted is a sane position. But the issue is far more complex than just that. In the 80s and 90s there was a concerted effort to mainstream what has been called 'a gay agenda' and - some might say - to faggify the Western world. I deliberately choose the provocative word, both for fun and to forward thoughtcrime. I have no reason at all to desire, condone or abet a cultural process of homosexualisation, and I regard it as an extremely negative thing.

So, sure, the best manoeuvre for the religious mind, especially the Occidental mind, is to bring it all to a very conscious level and certainly to work to define morals, jurisprudence, good administration, and much else.

Additionally, the mention of 'equality' for women is problematic. Women are not equal to men. There are structural difference that are not negatable. True, in our advanced cultures we have artificially equalised the status of women, and some large part of that has been through offering to women the capability of choice in reproduction. But it is absurd on the face to propose that women are 'equal', and thus the premise is flawed from the start. It is possible, and perhaps also wise, to choose to artificially maintain a largely equal status and to intervene to see that that happens.

I am always reminded of a pithy statement by Camille Paglia:

"If civilization had been left in female hands we would still be living in grass huts."

To investigate why this statement is true requires turning against a tide of false assumption.

Your wordiness tries to hide your lack of content.

You have a point on the grass huts.

Man did not have to fortify his city states until after the Bronze Age and killing off the Goddesses and replacing those peaceful Gods with our Gods of War.

I will go with the Dalai Lama on this one.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/1 ... 40583.html

"Women are not equal to men."

I do agree with this statement of yours. Men have a ways to climb before being at their level.

Regards
DL

[Gustav Bjornstrand]

Your wordiness tries to hide your lack of content.

More accurate to say you don't like the content.

It is likely - possible in any case - that you are unfamiliar with the reasoning behind the ideas, and so will refer to 'going with' a sentimental, easy-to-sell and very popular idea about female compassion, sold by a fraud. It is a truism, in many ways, but it can't replace clear, decisive thinking. I suggest far more rigorous and hard thinking about all those things that we absorb from mindless culture. I will also mention to you that Tibetan religious culture is virulently opposed to homosexuality. That by the way ...

This is an example of a mindless statement:

I do agree with this statement of yours. Men have a ways to climb before being at their level.

The 'level' that women have is the level they gain when they integrate with the products and possibilities of male culture. When they remain at the feminine level, they remain in grass huts. That is pretty much what Paglia means. Women are amazing as women, and totally important as women. But they are not men, nor should they seek to be men. Men are men, and men define a world ...

You are a queer, obviously, and you have absorbed and you express feminised doctrines. I have no problem with that, but I do take issue with idea constructs that lead to unproductive ends. Ideas have consequences ...

The Heraclitus idea (easily misunderstood) is for more relevant and interesting. It trumps feminised 'philosophy':

"War is the father of all and king of all, who manifested some as gods and some as men, who made some slaves and some freemen."

[Necromancer]

No, it's about the sensing of the supernatural, the spirit that's also highly moral:

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

And this spirit is believed in by following science:
Van Lommel studies - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-deat ... el_studies
Phantom feelings just like Descartes' describes them in "Meditations" - http://www.em-consulte.com/en/article/126149
Finally, the ongoing experiments (Ganzfeld room standard) of Telepathy with Zener cards involved - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telepathy, rather bad, no university studies cited. But what about "somatic experiencing" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic_Experiencing.

It's funny that religious people are so blamed when in fact Religious Ireland has voted in favour for equality of marriage for the LGBT community.
Also, isn't it religious people in large who has worded the texts of law and order that allows for current FREEDOM in the World (except Atheist North Korea).

BTW, fairy tales are patently false, but this hunt for spirit is yet questioned.

[Skip]

It's funny that religious people are so blamed when in fact Religious Ireland has voted in favour for equality of marriage for the LGBT community.
Also, isn't it religious people in large who has worded the texts of law and order that allows for current FREEDOM in the World (except Atheist North Korea).

It was post-religious secular governments that did those things. A lot of wailing and fist-shaking from the pulpits over every tiny step toward every single liberating or equalizing legislation in every country where those things actually happened - and the priests certainly haven't stopped their anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-everybody-except-fat-old-white-guys polemics.
Christians like to take credit for opposing slavery in Europe and America but don't explain why that took 1500 years, during which all of Europe and all of its colonies had Christian state religions.

BTW, fairy tales are patently false, but this hunt for spirit is yet questioned.

Fairy tales are allegorical narratives. Spirits don't like being hunted.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Your wordiness tries to hide your lack of content.

DL

I've noticed that about him too. I just resigned my self to calling him a wind-bag.

[Gustav Bjornstrand]

...and it wounded me deeply. Yet I recovered, and got on with it.

[Hobbes' Choice]

The human race will always tell itself tall tales, in order not to face the void that sits there waiting. And for that reason, I don't see why we can't allow people to believe in their own way, in order to get through the day.

I can see very good reasons why this is a bad idea.
Why can't the stories be based on facts?

No one is suggesting that that are going to be forced to give up on their beliefs, but "encouraged" to grow up. At the moment society gives its encouragement, assent and validates by tax exemption on money making schemes that preach lies and make promises they cannot keep.
When a cosmetics company does that they are taxed as any other corporation. But selling lies on religious grounds is allowed to persist.

People who believe that following the advice of a priest will get them an eternal reward are easily manipulated. This is not good for them, or society as a whole.

[Hobbes' Choice]

...and it wounded me deeply. Yet I recovered, and got on with it.

Your brevity is appreciated.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Also, isn't it religious people in large who has worded the texts of law and order that allows for current FREEDOM in the World (except Atheist North Korea).
.

Odd parenthetical statement.
North Korea is the most tragic example of a religion. There is no fairy tale more complete and dangerous than North Korea. And to call it Atheist is probably false.
All Koreans believe in gods. The only difference here is that one of their gods Kim Jong Un lives, and his parent and grandparent still live in heaven in a very literal way because they too are gods.

North Korea represents the apogee of religious dogma.

[Obvious Leo]

North Korea is the most tragic example of a religion.

Correct. North Korea is the quintessential theocratic state because it embodies its secular leader and religious leader together in a single individual. The Romans tried the same thing as they were transitioning from Republic to empire but it never really caught on until the Christians took over. Church and state then became inextricably entwined for over a thousand years, an era which we now know as the Dark Ages (with good reason).

In some modern nations in addition to North Korea church and state are still inseparable on many levels to do with civil law. These nations are also trapped in a modern version of the Dark Ages, where institutionalised ignorance is peddled as truth.

By the way, Gustav, you should take your bat and ball and go and play elsewhere. Your poisonous ideology makes most people puke and your inability to put a coherent story together makes most people doubt your sanity. The disordered nature of your thought processes are readily apparent to those with the experience to detect such things. Go and see your doctor.

[Gustav Bjornstrand]

Thanks most kindly, Nurse Leo, for your recommendation. There is nothing - not even slightly - 'poisonous' in anything I say or have said. I rather think of it as a form or antidote. But you are still working the mental-health angle. As one qualified to decide. Quo warranto?

[Hobbes' Choice]

Thanks most kindly, Nurse Leo, for your recommendation. There is nothing - not even slightly - 'poisonous' in anything I say or have said. I rather think of it as a form or antidote. But you are still working the mental-health angle. As one qualified to decide. Quo warranto?

There is much poison in your words, but you are thankfully an ineffective old wind-bag. You sit in your self-impose loneliness, dreaming up schemes. Poisonous you may be, but like a lone nettle in the middle of a field people just pass by and you go unnoticed, except when you occasionally brush and arm of the innocent. You wait, and wait to infect those around with your poison, but soon enough you will wither and die, and then you will be trampled into the earth having achieved nothing. No one will know you were there.

[Necromancer]

The truth about North Korea according to Wikipedia:

Religion in North Korea
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Religion in North Korea[1]

Not religious or Juche ideology (64.3%)
Korean shamanism (16%)
Chondoism (13.5%)
Buddhism (4.5%)
Christianity (1.7%)
There are no known official statistics of religions in North Korea. North Korea is an atheist state where public religion is discouraged.[2] Based on estimates from the late 1990s[3] and the 2000s,[1][4] North Korea is mostly atheist and agnostic, with the religious life dominated by the traditions of Korean shamanism and Chondoism. There are small communities of Buddhists (previously dominant) and Christians. The sole organised religion that has an official status is Chondoism,[5] which is represented in politics by the Party of the Young Friends of the Heavenly Way,[6] and is regarded by the government as Korea's "national religion"[7] because of its identity as a minjung (popular)[8] and "revolutionary anti-imperialist" movement.[9]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_North_Korea. We note 9 references for this.

Heh, heh, TRUTH or what?

[Hobbes' Choice]

The truth about North Korea according to Wikipedia:

Religion in North Korea
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Religion in North Korea[1]

Not religious or Juche ideology (64.3%)
Korean shamanism (16%)
Chondoism (13.5%)
Buddhism (4.5%)
Christianity (1.7%)
There are no known official statistics of religions in North Korea. North Korea is an atheist state where public religion is discouraged.[2] Based on estimates from the late 1990s[3] and the 2000s,[1][4] North Korea is mostly atheist and agnostic, with the religious life dominated by the traditions of Korean shamanism and Chondoism. There are small communities of Buddhists (previously dominant) and Christians. The sole organised religion that has an official status is Chondoism,[5] which is represented in politics by the Party of the Young Friends of the Heavenly Way,[6] and is regarded by the government as Korea's "national religion"[7] because of its identity as a minjung (popular)[8] and "revolutionary anti-imperialist" movement.[9]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_North_Korea. We note 9 references for this.

Heh, heh, TRUTH or what?

Wiki misses the main religion: the cult of Kim

WIKI "Kim-Jong-Il"

Cult of personality

A North Korean voting booth containing portraits of Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il under the national flag. Below the portraits is the ballot box.
Main article: North Korea's cult of personality
Kim Jong-il was the centre of an elaborate personality cult inherited from his father and founder of the DPRK, Kim Il-sung. Defectors have reported that North Korean schools deify both father and son. One defector wrote, "To my childish eyes and to those of all my friends, Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il were perfect beings, untarnished by any base human function. I was convinced, as we all were, that neither of them urinated or defecated. Who could imagine such things of gods?"[41]
Kim Jong-il was often the centre of attention throughout ordinary life in the DPRK. On his 60th birthday (based on his official date of birth), mass celebrations occurred throughout the country on the occasion of his Hwangab.[42] Many North Koreans believed that he had the "magical" ability to "control the weather" based on his mood.[41] In 2010, the North Korean media reported that Kim's distinctive clothing had set worldwide fashion trends.[43]

A man who controls the weather with his mood, and does not shit or piss, is divine.