How To Tell Right From Wrong

[attofishpi]

I think most of the 10 commandments are the most hideous and evil set of rules you could devise.

Then truly you are evil.

My heart is pure as the driven snow; that's why the commandments are rubbish to me.

I doubt that based on the previous comment.

What sort of petty insecure god needs all that attention and worship.

A God that demands respect, and from experience it deserves it.

ANd if you only have 10 commandments why waste so many on that and Forget women's rights and child protection?

Child protection goes without saying. Christ's golden rule also bares some weight here.
Women's rights - that's something society in general needs to have the gumption to address.
So why stop at ten - sure lets have thousands of commandments...ridiculous.

[thedoc]

So why stop at ten - sure lets have thousands of commandments...ridiculous.

If you can't follow 10, 1,000's aren't going to be any harder to not follow.

[Hobbes' Choice]

I think most of the 10 commandments are the most hideous and evil set of rules you could devise.

Then truly you are evil.

My heart is pure as the driven snow; that's why the commandments are rubbish to me.

I doubt that based on the previous comment.

Judge not lest you be judged

What sort of petty insecure god needs all that attention and worship.

A God that demands respect, and from experience it deserves it.

ANd if you only have 10 commandments why waste so many on that and Forget women's rights and child protection?

Child protection goes without saying.
BULLSHIT. Tell that the Catholic Church Christ's golden rule also bares some weight here.
Women's rights - that's something society in general needs to have the gumption to address.
So why stop at ten - sure lets have thousands of commandments...ridiculous.

Ridiculous is right - but as you only have ten why waste 4 on god, when one would so the same thing,

The golden rule is not a commandment, and the bible is full of sexist oppression of women and a lack of care for children.
Your creed is evil, and you with it.
You are filth

[attofishpi]

I think most of the 10 commandments are the most hideous and evil set of rules you could devise.

Then truly you are evil.

My heart is pure as the driven snow; that's why the commandments are rubbish to me.

I doubt that based on the previous comment.

Judge not lest you be judged

What sort of petty insecure god needs all that attention and worship.

A God that demands respect, and from experience it deserves it.

ANd if you only have 10 commandments why waste so many on that and Forget women's rights and child protection?

Child protection goes without saying.
BULLSHIT. Tell that the Catholic Church Christ's golden rule also bares some weight here.
Women's rights - that's something society in general needs to have the gumption to address.
So why stop at ten - sure lets have thousands of commandments...ridiculous.

Ridiculous is right - but as you only have ten why waste 4 on god, when one would so the same thing,

The golden rule is not a commandment, and the bible is full of sexist oppression of women and a lack of care for children.
Your creed is evil, and you with it.
You are filth

lol.
Tis not me that is filth...tis the "men" that God has to deal with.

Keep digging your bitter trench of the buy bull.
All fundamentalist theists are idiots, and most atheists argue within that same little box pigeon holing ALL theists as if they're fundamentalists, leaving their arguments inept when it comes to the likes of me.

[Hobbes' Choice]

The golden rule is not a commandment, and the bible is full of sexist oppression of women and a lack of care for children.
Your creed is evil, and you with it.
You are filth

lol.
Tis not me that is filth...tis the "men" that God has to deal with.

Ah duddums, poor god.
Well he created men, so he made his own problem.

[thedoc]

Well he created men, so he made his own problem.

That is why, when a child does something wrong, it's the parents who are held accountable.

The Bible has many stories of God trying to deal with disobedient children.

[attofishpi]

That is why, when a child does something wrong, it's the parents who are held accountable.

The Bible has many stories of God trying to deal with disobedient children.

You have a very innocent and naive understanding of God.

[Hobbes' Choice]

I'll leave this one up to you two.

You've both obviously got a lot to talk about. One man's delusion rarely matches another.

[thedoc]

That is why, when a child does something wrong, it's the parents who are held accountable.

The Bible has many stories of God trying to deal with disobedient children.

You have a very innocent and naive understanding of God.

A very simplistic description, - God died for our sin, the parent was held accountable for the misbehavior of the children. How is that naive?

[thedoc]

You have a very innocent and naive understanding of God.

Correction, I don't understand God at all, I don't claim to, and I don't attempt to. I simply trust.

[thedoc]

You have a very innocent and naive understanding of God.

Correction, I don't understand God at all, I don't claim to, and I don't attempt to. I simply trust.

If you understand God so well, describe God and explain God for the rest of us.

[thedoc]

]BULLSHIT. Tell that the Catholic Church

The Catholic Church is not the end all and be all of Christianity, sometimes I wonder if they are Christian at all.

[artisticsolution]

I think we went through this, did we not? Can you perhaps backtrack to where I talked about the human moral judgment being flawed?

Oh, is that your final answer? That's it? Well, yeah. It's flawed. What of it? Do you mean Christians don't have to be able to tell right from wrong because they are saved?

So how do I know it wasn't from my ancestors needing to control a population?

You won't know until you evaluate that explanation for plausibility. On the surface, it looks like it might have something to it; but when you look at the particulars, I suspect you'll quickly find that explanation too superficial.

Perhaps you can explain what you mean?

There is some truth in this, but perhaps not in the way you might intend. If by "evolved" you mean "had to be reinterpreted and applied to new circumstances," of course. If by "evolved" you mean, "changed from X to -X, then you'd need to explain how murder could be right now, when it was wrong at the time of the Torah. If by "evolved" you mean "gotten better over time," then the empirical evidence against that is strong.

What I mean is, Christians are apt to follow the bible not keeping in mind the 10 commandments. Each generation picks and chooses what it wants the bible to say. Very few interpret it using the 10 commandments. So in one era you can have Salem witch hunts, and in another you can say that the Jews are going to hell, and any other crazy thing a christian can come up with to hate they neighbor. If my test was taught to begin with, it could make a difference when reading and interpreting the bible. I don't think God meant for us to get, hate thy neighbor, from reading the bible. And you have to admit, there are some very advanced stories in the bible that could be taken the wrong way, if one allows a their perverted mind to translate. My test is not a command, but rather a guideline toward keeping God's word by interpreting to the best of our ability with a pure heart and clean mind.

So when you started the thread with the heading, "How To Tell Right From Wrong," you really didn't want to talk about that?

Here is your whole quote below...you are trying to turn it into a christian vs. atheist thread instead of keeping it about how Christians can tell wrong from right. This pisses me off...just so you know. It makes me think you are dishonest. Whether you know you're being dishonest or not is the question.

When I left I had put up an opportunity for all the Atheists out there. I had simply put to them HOW they know right from wrong. That is, what is their ground or legitimation for saying X is bad or good. For if, as AS assumes, Christians need some way of testing the matter of "right" and "wrong," then surely so do the Atheists (unless being "Atheist" means being amoral, as Nietzsche thought).

[Immanuel Can]

Well, since you're annoyed, let's start with what's annoying you. It's at the end...

Here is your whole quote below...you are trying to turn it into a christian vs. atheist thread instead of keeping it about how Christians can tell wrong from right. This pisses me off...just so you know. It makes me think you are dishonest. Whether you know you're being dishonest or not is the question.

Ha. Of course that's the question. One is not culpable for something about which one has no knowledge. You can't be "dishonest" unless you know what the "honest" truth is, and are refusing to use it. And I'm clearly not attempting to mislead anyone. I simply asked a question, and I think, a most reasonable one.

Here's how it looks to me:

1. You asked Christians to respond on the subject of "How To Tell Right From Wrong."

2. You didn't object when various Atheists joined the conversation. In fact, you chatted away with them amiably about how Christians didn't seem to be answering.

3. So I answered. And I criticized the test you proposed as premised on an inadequate epistemological model.

4. Then I asked Atheists to answer exactly the same question you asked Christians: namely, how they really tell right from wrong.

5. You got angry.

Now, why are you angry? Is it because you don't think Atheists have a right to be in a discussion stream you started with specific reference to Christians? That seems rather unnecessarily exclusionary. Is it because I didn't like your test? Well, we can't always have things our way, especially when we set out to criticize other people. We can expect them to want to answer us, and they may not agree. Again, there is no reason to be upset.

Or are you upset because I asked a question? But why should you be mad if it's the question you yourself asked? Are you thinking you're the only one who can legitimately ask a question on a strand you started? That seems kind of narrow, don't you think?

So I feel quite justified in putting your question to our other interlocutors. And I see no way that impedes you from discussing your own view...you're more or less an agnostic, you say...so fine...go ahead. You can tell us all how agnostics "tell right from wrong."

What's the problem?

Meanwhile, I'm waiting for my answer. And I have no objection to letting the Atheists talk, even if you do. After they answer, you can take the answer anywhere you wish. You're not limited in any way, except by your own question. I see no problem there.

So I really cannot understand, therefore, why you are angry.

[artisticsolution]

AS -
let me get this right...you think that the Bible's beauty lies in the way it is written to 'get to the heart of a Christian's heart'.
You think this is a clever way for God to know what is in a person's heart?

No. Not God so much as other people. Meaning, it is written in such a way, that there can be many different interpretations, obviously from all the interpretations of the many posters on this thread...can you imagine how many in the world?! So that, the interpretations of the bible are not so much the problem as the hateful interpretations. My test is just a simply way to tell if one believes what they are saying is in keeping with the lords word. It doesn't much matter if it REALLY is in keeping with his word...as we really can't be sure who on earth is following the correct interpretation. The only thing we can do if follow our heart and mind. I am talking about accountability on a personal level.

Here's the thing, IC admits that you should follow God and not the church or him. But he also thinks you should follow his interpretation of the bible, which for me, his interpretation is flawed. Now mine might also be flawed....at least in IC's eyes. My point is, if I use his interpretation, then I am not following what God has put in my heart. I am not being authentic. I am following IC. One of the commandments is thou shalt have no other God's before me. Now that AND taking into account that I am the only one who will be held responsible for my sins when I die, I am going to go with what I know in my heart. Not what IC knows in his.

That is why the test I came up with when I was little is so important. We all have different mindsets. Some of us are more capable of understanding than others. However, we all* can be honest in our own minds, at least...even if we can't be honest to others for what ever reason. The voice in our mind will let us know our own understanding of right and wrong. And if it differs from someone elses. That is neither here nor there, as I am not discussing human law here. I am discussing God's law. And God did not make evil...well, Okay, he made the devil...which then turned out to be evil...but that was because of free will. (And another thread altogether so I don't want to get into that discussion...this one is hard enough). What I am saying is everyone has their own interpretation of right and wrong, insomuch as we can understand. If God made us innocent, like Lenny in 'Of Mice And Men', and we don't understand when we kill, then I don't think we can be held responsible. But if we DO understand...then God help us.

This Christian idea of being saved gets you into heaven no matter what, I reject. Why would one even need to read the bible and follow the rules if this was the case?

Nor can I see how it is the same as your personal testing of others to the sweet and kind part of AS - to assess reaction as to whether or not they are dicks. You admit it is 'not nice' but it entertains you to have lulled them into some sense of false security. Do you think, if there is a God, that God's Judgement Day will be so hugely amusing...
If there is a beauty in the Bible, then I don't think this is where it lies.
If there is a sweet kindness in AS, then I don't think this is where it lies.

Yes, I agree with you, sort of*....I agree that I am accountable for this behavior. And this is why everyone and I always joke I am going to hell. lol Because I think I am the only person I know that pretty much wears on her sleeve her sin. I hold myself accountable for my sin. I think it is impossible for me not to sin. I'm a huge sinner.I know this precisely because , I know how to tell right from wrong. LOL I notice that some Christians in my family can't do this. So they will pray for my soul, but feel confident about themselves, until I ask them to take the test in their head and then they pause to think...because they know, what they've just said, was wrong. Without the test, they would believe it was right...at least on the surface. That is how deep the christian lie goes...they don't even know they are doing it.

Remember when I asked my sis the other day to take the test on her racism? Well it helped....she is trying not to be racist. However, because she is not used to applying the test on a habitual basis, yesterday, she said another thing that I had to remind her yet again, was not quite right in her thinking. This here was another Christian lie, that I am not sure they know they are lying...they are just so used to lying for God, I think they think it is the good/right thing to do....lol...and this is where I hate getting involved...because how am I to know they aren't just so innocent, they are like Lenny? Maybe, by bringing them into awareness, they will be worse off, if there is a God. Because once you know...then you are accountable? Anyway, here is what happened:

So, we all go out to dinner. Before dinner, my mom gives my sis some of her xanax, because my sis has anxiety (I believed caused Christian mentality) and she had run out. So, during dinner, my sis turns to her daughters and says, "Never ever trust an atheist. These are people who do not believe in God. They are bad people and don't know right from wrong." Her kids just looked at her wide eyed and so did I...LOL. I was like, WTF?! The younger one didn't understand what my sis had just said,,,it was clear. My mom said, "Maybe this is a little advanced to tell them." I agreed and did not want to even go there as I felt continuing with the conversation would have been worse for the kids...as my sis and mom can both start fighting if they think you are going against God...which for me to defend an atheist...would be considered 'going against God." So quietly, I lean over to my sis and whisper, " I think maybe you shouldn't say things like that to them, as it might backfire...Christians can be just as sinful as anyone."

I didn't know how else to put it. Clearly, this is some fucked up shit my sis is teaching her kids. But where to begin with taming the insanity? It goes from one crazy thought to another? My sis has absolutely no idea how damaging what she said to her daughters was. None. This done in the name of Christianity....

Yes, I sin. The difference is, I do not do it in the name of God. This is why I hold Christians to a higher standard. They should know better.

How to tell right from wrong. Think about it. It's tricky but not that dicky.

*You are absolutely right. Tricky not dicky is the way to be... But, as you said in the Argh thread. Sometimes you have to put your foot down so others do not take advantage. And THAT is where Moral relativism comes in to play...lol. Oh dear...did I just open THAT can of worms?!?

*Edited because I know to use the word 'all' is frowned upon...I am just using 'all' here to mean any person who is able to have a thought to themselves inside their own head, which other people are not privy to...