How To Tell Right From Wrong

[Immanuel Can]

Now, I've been away for a couple of days, and I see that during my absence this thread has kind of exploded with discussion. It would take me a long time to catch up with each possible post, and I'd end up running a couple of pages worth of my own responses, and nobody wants that, I'm sure. So having addressed the first couple, I'm going to go back to where I left off. (If I've missed something anyone deems burningly essential, feel free to bring it up again now, and I'll pick it up for you.)

The apologetics angle is attractive to both sides of the debate, and for different reasons. It's understandable we'd all go into it: it's hugely interesting and important. But maybe it's a side issue.

Originally, the strand here was about "How to Tell Right from Wrong," and I think we should honour that rather than spiralling off into related issues, if we can. (We could always do an additional strand, if anyone is still sincerely interested in the apologetics discussion.) However, we could easily just grant one another our suppositions...that is, grant that IC is a Christian and that, say, Obvious Leo is an Atheist, or at least a skeptic. That would allow us to do the work this strand asked us to do, rather than the related matter of apologetics.

I'm going to suggest that, for this strand, we try to get back to the original matter and work from there.

The strand began with AS's claim she had an infallible way for Christians to tell right from wrong. She called out Christians, specifically, to respond to it. After a bit, I chimed in with my doubts about the value of that test -- even for the kind of Christians with which she is familiar, but certainly for the kinds with which she is not. I don't see that Atheists here felt they wanted to say much on that particular test...understandably, of course, since the idea of giving account to God is something they deny anyway. So they're being consistent there, so I can hardly fault them for that.

Nevertheless, I think Atheists do have a legitimate interest in the larger question framed by AS, the matter of "right" and "wrong." And the Atheist set has not been reticent to chime in, so I think they all agree that they do have a stake in the discussion. But if the test AS wants for Christians is no good, even for them, then it's certainly of no use to Atheists.

When I left I had put up an opportunity for all the Atheists out there. I had simply put to them HOW they know right from wrong. That is, what is their ground or legitimation for saying X is bad or good. For if, as AS assumes, Christians need some way of testing the matter of "right" and "wrong," then surely so do the Atheists (unless being "Atheist" means being amoral, as Nietzsche thought).

And all I've heard since I put up that opportunity is the crickets chirping.

So I want to put it out there one more time: Atheists, time to step up to the plate (or wicket). Take your best swing.

[Immanuel Can]

M: Are you for real, AS? You are generalising again...and this does not help. Not all atheists view Christians the same way, and not all are 'totally right' about their view. And vice versa.
You have resisted my suggestion that you take your test to a different arena - a more fertile fishing ground. If you only cast your net here, or within your own circle of acquaintances, then you are limiting the potential for 'holding them accountable for what their bible says'.
I understand your reluctance to 'go there'.
In all of internet land, there will be a place, other than the PN forum, where your words and seeds might better be planted...if your aim is to do what you said.
Actually, what I think you really deep-down desired was to lead a merry dance with IC

I don't mind a dance...when it's in a good cause.

Thanks for the comment, MB.

[artisticsolution]

M: Are you for real, AS? You are generalising again...and this does not help. Not all atheists view Christians the same way, and not all are 'totally right' about their view. And vice versa.
You have resisted my suggestion that you take your test to a different arena - a more fertile fishing ground. If you only cast your net here, or within your own circle of acquaintances, then you are limiting the potential for 'holding them accountable for what their bible says'.
I understand your reluctance to 'go there'.
In all of internet land, there will be a place, other than the PN forum, where your words and seeds might better be planted...if your aim is to do what you said.
Actually, what I think you really deep-down desired was to lead a merry dance with IC

AS: Well, IC is a fun dance partner! But here's the deal, IC is a rational person to argue with, unlike other Christians I have met...I may not agree with him...and he does frustrate the hell out of me because he doesn't explain what he believes in a way I can understand. Instead he leaves questions open ended, in a veil of secrecy. I don't like when he does this, but at least he is not stupid or nuts, causing me to want to scream...lol.

Do you watch Fox news at all? Have you heard the nonsense come out of the 'bible belt'? I mean, with that type of crazy, you don't know where to begin. So this is my main fear of going to a Christian forum, I can't stand the nutty arguments which you can't contend with because all they end up being is a bunch of people telling each other they need to pray for your soul at best, or nuke/shoot you, at worst (if you happen to be Muslim, Mexican, etc.). So Doc is right, they are all busy being 'nice'.

But tell me, are you on any Christian forums? Would you even join one? I only belong to this forum, this one takes up most of my free time as it is. I like it because one is able to ask questions or make statements without being told they are going to hell for merely saying. I mean you can be told you are wrong in a very insulting way here...lol...but at least they might also give reasons why they think you are wrong...well at least most. But now that Doc said this:

thedoc: The members on a Christian forum are usually too busy telling each other how wonderful they are. They already know what right and wrong are (it's in the book) so that question would fall flat. For real world answers and discussion, you need to post on a non religious forum.

AS: Perhaps it is time to go to a Christian forum and see if Doc is right....Doc, do you have any suggestions which forum all these 'nice' Christians are? I want to see if my test "falls flat" or if they go all on me...which has been my experience...except for with my sis.

[attofishpi]

AS: Perhaps it is time to go to a Christian forum and see if Doc is right....Doc, do you have any suggestions which forum all these 'nice' Christians are? I want to see if my test "falls flat" or if they go all on me...which has been my experience...except for with my sis.

Why not, similar happened to me on AFA (Atheist Foundation Australia).

People of such ilk on a forum with all their buddies don't take warmly to the opposite opinion.

[attofishpi]

If the Christians heart is pure, like Jesus, then there is no other way to understand the bible except for keeping in mind the 10 commandments.

Smartest thing i've seen you post.

I don't think it's very smart, quite the contrary.
Back in the days, catholic orphanages raised children to be pure of Heart, not know any sin, not know anything at all but very basic things, so they were sheltered from society, whcih lead to utterly naive and gullible children when they were led out to society as adults, thus thus they were scammed and robbed very easily.

If you want to be a policeman, you need to be a little rought around the edges, not going too soft on bullies, but still being respectful. Same as a soldier, you need to kill people, to defend your boarders.
You need to be a skilled merchant in order to feed your flock, in modern terms you need to be greedy as Hell if you want a big society that can afford very expensive medical equipment and medicine.

..so this "pure of heart" is merely empty rethorics.

I don't think consideration of what catholic priests\nuns believe the concept of 'pure of heart' is representational of what Christ would have considered to be the same. Lets face it, they were c**nts in general.
Christ stated he came as a sword - i know it to be a double edged sword in fact.

What i would expect of someone to be of pure heart, would be honest, fair, faithful and feared all within the same breath.

[artisticsolution]

But if the test AS wants for Christians is no good, even for them, then it's certainly of no use to Atheists.

How is it 'no' good for Christians and why?

When I left I had put up an opportunity for all the Atheists out there. I had simply put to them HOW they know right from wrong. That is, what is their ground or legitimation for saying X is bad or good. For if, as AS assumes, Christians need some way of testing the matter of "right" and "wrong," then surely so do the Atheists (unless being "Atheist" means being amoral, as Nietzsche thought).

First of all, I want to say again, I am not an atheist...so stop saying I am. I am agnostic because for me, i feel that is the only way I can be honest about God. Since he has not shown himself to me. I will NOT lie to others, in some self serving attempt to get into heaven. I simply won't compromise my integrity.

so, let us be clear ONE MORE TIME, do not group me into this atheist ideal you have going on in your head! I got my idea of right and wrong the same place you got yours. From society, which taught me about the bible. If I was to say from God, that would be a lie, as I have not seen a God. So how do I know it wasn't from my ancestors needing to control a population?

I mean, as I see it, morality has evolved. If there was an adam and eve...then to populate the world...their kids would have had to do each other...right? So then incest was a good thing for a while? But is it considered 'right' today? No. Not to mention, there are a whole list of ideas today, within our laws, which I think are totally wrong. But they have become "right", even in a Christians eyes, simply because, I believe most people follow the leader. So if the law says, corporations can have certain rights, just as a person does....I do not see that as right, as there is no human spirit to punish if the corp does wrong to an individual. There are other examples, but I just wanted to show that the law, is separate from God's law that his children...the ones he loves...are human...not corporations.

In other words, do not group me in with this loophole you think you have found. The reason for this thread is how to know right and wrong...from a Christian perspective. So, there is no reason to bring up the question "what is your legitimation" for saying X is bad or good. I am coming from the view point that x is bad and good based on God's word...which is the bible. I don't know how else to say it so you will understand what I am getting at. I am becoming increasingly frustrated at your insistence that I am coming from any other angle than what I say in the beginning of this thread.

IC: So I want to put it out there one more time: Atheists, time to step up to the plate (or wicket). Take your best swing.

And there it is again! You are trying to deflect the point of this thread into your own agenda. I believe you are doing this because you don't want to be held accountable for what you believe the bible says. The thought of a mere agnostic, leading you in this dance, as M puts it...lol...either terrifies you or pisses you off. I don't know why you can't have an honest conversation about the scriptures, but it appears to me you can't.

Do you want to prove me wrong?

[Immanuel Can]

Why not, similar happened to me on AFA (Atheist Foundation Australia).

People of such ilk on a forum with all their buddies don't take warmly to the opposite opinion.

I think you're very astute, attofishpi. It's just human nature to "bunch up." (I've seen it from both sides, since I kind of live "on the line" so to speak.)

Christians often "bunch up" because they're feeling attacked and unappreciated by the outside world, and this is the most natural way to guaranteed better conditions. But Atheists are equally clannish, preferring to cling together in mutually supportive fellowship-of-the-despisers rather than expose certain vulnerable points of their "plausibility structures" to the cold winds of critical examination. And the rhetorical styles of the two sides reflect that. Just as Christians can come off to the external world as saccharine or insular, Atheists come off as angry, egocentric and hostile to anyone who does not rejoice in their agenda.

This forum ought to be different, in the ideal. Yet I was warned immediately, when I arrived, that it was not a place for the timid, that I would have to "raise [my] shields as enter the rain of arrows." That seemed unnecessarily hostile, at the time; but it also explains why Christians do not always venture into forums like this. Everyone knows they are likely to be dismissed without a hearing and to be abused on the way out the door.

Nevertheless, I think the long silence between Christians and others has been unhelpful to both sides. It increases everyone's insularity. A good conversation can help both sides refine their thinking, even in cases where they don't change their minds ultimately. And only a certain limited kind of conversation is available from those keen on reinforcing that status quo -- and that's true for both sides. It would do Christians good to do more talking with Atheists, agnostics and people of other beliefs. It would do Atheists a world of good to stop talking exclusively to those who already agree with them.

But if wishes were horses...

[HexHammer]

I don't think consideration of what catholic priests\nuns believe the concept of 'pure of heart' is representational of what Christ would have considered to be the same. Lets face it, they were c**nts in general.
Christ stated he came as a sword - i know it to be a double edged sword in fact.

What i would expect of someone to be of pure heart, would be honest, fair, faithful and feared all within the same breath.

Yes it's easy to be wise when being a backseat driver, but how do you translate all this "pure of heat" into modern terms?

Is it good to donate exorbiant amounts of cloth to 3rd World Countries?

[marjoram_blues]

AS wrote: Well, IC is a fun dance partner! But here's the deal, IC is a rational person to argue with, unlike other Christians I have met...I may not agree with him...and he does frustrate the hell out of me because he doesn't explain what he believes in a way I can understand. Instead he leaves questions open ended, in a veil of secrecy. I don't like when he does this, but at least he is not stupid or nuts, causing me to want to scream...lol.

Do you watch Fox news at all? Have you heard the nonsense come out of the 'bible belt'? I mean, with that type of crazy, you don't know where to begin. So this is my main fear of going to a Christian forum, I can't stand the nutty arguments which you can't contend with because all they end up being is a bunch of people telling each other they need to pray for your soul at best, or nuke/shoot you, at worst (if you happen to be Muslim, Mexican, etc.). So Doc is right, they are all busy being 'nice'.

But tell me, are you on any Christian forums? Would you even join one? I only belong to this forum, this one takes up most of my free time as it is. I like it because one is able to ask questions or make statements without being told they are going to hell for merely saying.

Perhaps IC can lead you to the kind of place where your test - addressed specifically to Christians - might best be received. Your seed sown.
Even if he doesn't frequent them himself, it seems that he has great insight into the circuit.
I have watched Fox news in the past. I know about the Christian crazies to whom you refer. Again, not all Christians are so extreme, and yet may still have ingrained ideas of other people and how they should be treated, or prayed for.

Your test was well received by your sister; it made her think. This is the kind of person. and bigoted thinking, your test is aimed at, no?

I am not on any Christian forums. If I thought it would be in my interests and I wanted to test a specific community, then I would be considering where best to get my message over. How many bigoted Christians come to the PN forum?

[Immanuel Can]

But if the test AS wants for Christians is no good, even for them, then it's certainly of no use to Atheists.

How is it 'no' good for Christians and why?

I think we went through this, did we not? Can you perhaps backtrack to where I talked about the human moral judgment being flawed?

First of all, I want to say again, I am not an atheist...so stop saying I am. [...] I am becoming increasingly frustrated at your insistence that I am coming from any other angle than what I say in the beginning of this thread.

I didn't. If you read it again, you'll see I put my message "out there" to everyone, not to you in particular. Please try not to be so thin-skinned. It's not always about you. There are other people participating, and if you do not think you are being named, you probably are NOT being named.

So how do I know it wasn't from my ancestors needing to control a population?

You won't know until you evaluate that explanation for plausibility. On the surface, it looks like it might have something to it; but when you look at the particulars, I suspect you'll quickly find that explanation too superficial.

I mean, as I see it, morality has evolved.

There is some truth in this, but perhaps not in the way you might intend. If by "evolved" you mean "had to be reinterpreted and applied to new circumstances," of course. If by "evolved" you mean, "changed from X to -X, then you'd need to explain how murder could be right now, when it was wrong at the time of the Torah. If by "evolved" you mean "gotten better over time," then the empirical evidence against that is strong.

And there it is again! You are trying to deflect the point of this thread into your own agenda.

So when you started the thread with the heading, "How To Tell Right From Wrong," you really didn't want to talk about that?

I believe you are doing this because you don't want to be held accountable for what you believe the bible says.

I'm sorry...I don't get one bit of what you're trying to say here. It seems to me I've answered your questions, as often as you've referred to the Bible. What remains?

The thought of a mere agnostic, leading you in this dance, as M puts it...lol...either terrifies you or pisses you off.

Neither: I have no idea why you imagine either.

Well, let's just see what the Atheists (I know, I know...not you...I got that long ago) have to say in response to what I've asked.

[marjoram_blues]

As you say though, there are passages in the bible that exhort people to do terrible things. Frankly, I think religion would be better off without books altogether.

Well, that is the beauty part of this particular book imo, it is written in a way to get to the heart of a Christian's heart. Lol

If the Christians heart is pure, like jesus, then there is no other way to understand the bible except for keeping in mind the 10 commandments. What a clever way for a God to know what is in a person's heart than to give him some commandments. ..then write a book with all types of stories..and sit back and see what the person does. Obviously, a person who actively mangles the meaning to promote racism or murder or whatever ugly thing a person can think up...is not understanding the point.

I kinda do this myself a little. ..what I will do is be myself. ..which is basically kind and sweet (I know...you wouldn't think that from the forum. ..but nonetheless. ..lol) and then just wait to see how people react. If they are dicks...they will take my kindness as weakness and try to take advantage of me or downright disrespect me...and that's when I unleash the dogs of hell...lol (you know...the person you see in the forum).

Anyway, not nice...but very entertaining to see the surprised look on their face...totally worth going to hell over! Lol

AS -
let me get this right...you think that the Bible's beauty lies in the way it is written to 'get to the heart of a Christian's heart'.
You think this is a clever way for God to know what is in a person's heart?

If there is a God, then he already knows everything about what everybody thinks, believes, and how their beliefs are translated into right or wrong action. There would be no need for any of what might be termed convoluted trickery.

I think what you mean is that you feel you can hold Christians to account by referencing certain scriptures to show them the error of their ways and to improve their behaviour. This is not the same as your simple test of imagination which is perhaps easier to administer than playing the scriptural interpretation game.

Nor can I see how it is the same as your personal testing of others to the sweet and kind part of AS - to assess reaction as to whether or not they are dicks. You admit it is 'not nice' but it entertains you to have lulled them into some sense of false security. Do you think, if there is a God, that God's Judgement Day will be so hugely amusing...
If there is a beauty in the Bible, then I don't think this is where it lies.
If there is a sweet kindness in AS, then I don't think this is where it lies.

How to tell right from wrong. Think about it. It's tricky but not that dicky.

[thedoc]

AS: Perhaps it is time to go to a Christian forum and see if Doc is right....Doc, do you have any suggestions which forum all these 'nice' Christians are? I want to see if my test "falls flat" or if they go all on me...which has been my experience...except for with my sis.

AS I wish I could point you to a Christian or Religious forum where you could test this out, but I usually only browse one of those forums for a few minutes and I don't remember which ones I've been on. I am not a member on any forum that I would describe as Religious. I'm registered on several other forums, some of those I would describe as Rabidly Atheistic, in that many of the members are openly abusive and hostile about any kind of religious belief. On those forums I only post a few times and then forgo the pleasure of getting abuse from the other members. Most of the forums that I frequent are populated by a mix of members, and those who are posting are generally polite and state their beliefs in a civil manner.

Here are a few that I have bookmarked but I don't visit,

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/index.php

Apparently there was only one.

And it turns out that I am registered there, in 2013, but I couldn't find my posts, but I think there might be 2.

[thedoc]

A quick search yielded a few, but I haven't browsed them.

http://www.christianforums.com/

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php

http://www.worthychristianforums.com/

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/forum.php

http://www.christianforumsite.com/

https://www.christforums.org/

http://www.christianityboard.com/

http://www.globalchristianforum.org/

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/christian

Let me know if you join a forum, as it might be fun to watch the discussion. I might even register if the thread gets interesting.

[thedoc]

Here are a few other forums that I am on, from moderate to a bit extreme.

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/forums/

http://www.freethought-forum.com/?

http://psychegenetics.proboards.com/

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/index.php

http://dissidentsphilosophy.alldiscussion.net/

http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/

http://www.project-reason.org/forum/

http://www.talkrational.org/

The first 2 I visit regularly, the others I have bookmarked and have registered, but they don't hold a lot of interest for me.

On Talk Rational I am the TR chess Champion, based on winning one game, by default. (I'm BardoXV there)

[Hobbes' Choice]

If the Christians heart is pure, like Jesus, then there is no other way to understand the bible except for keeping in mind the 10 commandments.

Smartest thing i've seen you post.

I think most of the 10 commandments are the most hideous and evil set of rules you could devise.
My heart is pure as the driven snow; that's why the commandments are rubbish to me.

What sort of petty insecure god needs all that attention and worship. ANd if you only have 10 commandments why waste so many on that and Forget women's rights and child protection?