How To Tell Right From Wrong

[Obvious Leo]

you have absolutely no way to detect whether your judgments are accurate or errant -- there are no objective standards you acknowledge.

Unless I've misunderstood your meaning you seem to be claiming that Christians are held to certain standards of morality which are in some sense "objective". Before I lay this absurd claim to waste will you confirm that this is indeed your intended meaning.

[Obvious Leo]

Have you no knowledge of the Jewish intellectual tradition, nor of the Christian contribution to knowledge, ethics and science?

A great deal more than you give me credit for, I suspect. If you have a dictionary close to hand I suggest you look up the difference between the words "reasoning" and "rationalising".

I notice that you've become very reticent about the philosophical merits of your favourite charlatan, William Lane Craig. If you wish to uphold his arguments as the epitome of logical reasoning then smiting your fatuous statements of position to the four winds would be akin to shooting fish in a barrel. However don't get me wrong. I honestly couldn't care less about what anybody chooses to believe about anything and I certainly don't assume the right to tell consenting adults what they are free or not free to do in the privacy of their own minds. Nevertheless philosophy has been my life's work and I will always reserve the right to jump squarely onto the face of anybody who misuses its tools in the pursuit of an agenda of belief.

"Belief is the antithesis of knowledge.".... Bertrand Russell.

[thedoc]

IC, I mostly agree with what you are saying, I just don't have the stamina to keep up with your opponents, I just wanted you to know that I agree with your posts and support your position.

[thedoc]

"Belief is the antithesis of knowledge.".... Bertrand Russell.

So Bertrand Russell is the end all and be all of everything?

[Obvious Leo]

"Belief is the antithesis of knowledge.".... Bertrand Russell.

So Bertrand Russell is the end all and be all of everything?

You leap to an unwarranted assumption if you assume that this as my position. I merely quote him because he points out very eloquently that beliefs are not legitimate objects of scientific or philosophical enquiry, an opinion with which I concur. Do you take a different view?

[Hobbes' Choice]

Why is it that religion robs people of the most basic reasoning skills?

It's written into the rules, Hobbes. All three branches of Abrahamic monotheism explicitly forbid the believer to subject his faith to logical scrutiny. This was a truth made very plain to me by the men in frocks and they showed themselves willing to reinforce their certainties with the liberal use of bamboo canes and dire threats of mortality. Eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge is forbidden to a believer.

Agreed.
Obvously MR. Can enjoys the beating. He's certainly getting a good thrashing here. Shame he can no longer feel the pain.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Why is it that religion robs people of the most basic reasoning skills?

It's written into the rules, Hobbes. All three branches of Abrahamic monotheism explicitly forbid the believer to subject his faith to logical scrutiny. This was a truth made very plain to me by the men in frocks and they showed themselves willing to reinforce their certainties with the liberal use of bamboo canes and dire threats of mortality. Eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge is forbidden to a believer.

Agreed.
Obvously MR. Can enjoys the beating. He's certainly getting a good thrashing here. Shame he can no longer feel the pain.

[attofishpi]

"Belief is the antithesis of knowledge.".... Bertrand Russell.

A ridiculous statement when you consider knowledge is often gained from the seed of a belief.

[Obvious Leo]

A ridiculous statement when you consider knowledge is often gained from the seed of a belief.

Would you care to offer an example?

[Scott Mayers]

A ridiculous statement when you consider knowledge is often gained from the seed of a belief.

Would you care to offer an example?

I'm with you here Leo. However, as to our previous discussion elsewhere, we know that you neither comb your hair to the right nor to the left.....and that's just plain "wrong"!

[artisticsolution]

Why is it that religion robs people of the most basic reasoning skills?

It's written into the rules, Hobbes. All three branches of Abrahamic monotheism explicitly forbid the believer to subject his faith to logical scrutiny. This was a truth made very plain to me by the men in frocks and they showed themselves willing to reinforce their certainties with the liberal use of bamboo canes and dire threats of mortality. Eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge is forbidden to a believer.

Agreed.
Obvously MR. Can enjoys the beating. He's certainly getting a good thrashing here. Shame he can no longer feel the pain.

Why is it that religion robs people of the most basic reasoning skills?

It's written into the rules, Hobbes. All three branches of Abrahamic monotheism explicitly forbid the believer to subject his faith to logical scrutiny. This was a truth made very plain to me by the men in frocks and they showed themselves willing to reinforce their certainties with the liberal use of bamboo canes and dire threats of mortality. Eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge is forbidden to a believer.

Agreed.
Obvously MR. Can enjoys the beating. He's certainly getting a good thrashing here. Shame he can no longer feel the pain.

I am not sure you understand the dynamic going on here. IC absolutely enjoys the 'beating' actually...well...enjoy is not the right word...more like he probably thinks it is a prophecy...as in, I must be on the right track according to God...look at all these people beating up on me for following God's word!' .

Christians, believe this:

Timothy 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

You play into their hand when you tell them they are crazy to believe in a God and bash them for doing so. I know from experience, you only strengthen their resolve to do more of the same....which to them means, "Love Jesus no matter who comes at you with a pitchfork."

I didn't want to have the same ol' atheist against theist argument. The reason I made this thread is,I wanted to come from another angle. I am asking them to humble themselves just for a moment in front of their God, so they can imagine what it would be like to say the things they do in front of God. There is no harm in that, according to Christianity. There is harm, according to Christianity, to follow Satan, which the already believe resides in the atheist's world view. So, no matter what the atheist says, their words will have no weight with a Christian, as the words coming from an atheist, although sometimes rational, will only serve to strengthen their 'me against satan' mentality. Which is not where I wanted this thread to go...as in all threads having to do with religion all usually go in the same direction...which is atheist against theist.

I wanted this to be a thread about God's word (i.e. the scriptures)compared to what Christian's profess to believe in accordance with their actions.

I wanted to show that according to their own book, Jesus expected more from them. It is all good and well they think their immortal soul is saved...great...but what about their fellow humans? Over and over in the bible it commands Christians to behave a certain way...and there is a clear cut reason why...in order to show the compassion and goodness that is supposed to come from knowing Jesus. The reasons they think they are being persecuted for (i.e. for loving Jesus) is not the real reason they are being 'persecuted' (if you can call it that at all personally, it's a little dramatic for me, as most don't even know what it is to be 'persecuted'...try dying on a cross, then come back to me ) ...the real reason they are being 'persecuted' is because atheists are frustrated at the lack of 'Christianity' in Christians.

What I mean is , really...what atheist really gives a fuck about what anyone believes? It's that moral compass and lack thereof, I am talking about here... Most Atheists, who developed their moral compass through reasoning, see Christianity as actively promoting immorality in the wild assertions they claim. Most theist lack a developed moral compass, and instead rely on a book they have no understanding of to drive their morality. The catalyst is when Christians lose their way, from their lack of reasoning skills, and instead allow their natural instincts to kick in...instincts that I think we can all agree that "the natural state of man" is not the best ideal in the world. They use the crutch of other misguided Christians, to find refuge in the hope that they are 'saved'.

Now I know you all will fight me on that last sentence ( well...probably every sentence. ..lol), but if Christians were all kind as a group and walked the walk and talked the talk, I don't think they would feel as 'persecuted' as most non Christians, might say, 'well, I don't believe in Jesus, but I have to admit those Christians sure are nice! Always, lending a helping hand and doing kind acts! It's a breath of fresh air!"

But that will never happen, because Christians are more worried about how they can make themselves look 'good' in the eyes of the lord, and to do that, they must make others out to be sinners, damned to hell, by comparison. Because if they didn't, they would have to ask the really tough question, "what would God think of my actions?" Oh no! Forget about the bible....the only scripture that counts for them is:

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

But they fail to believe the next part of the statement:

"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

Which would mean, they would really have to walk the walk and talk the talk. But that is way to hard...because it requires honest and accountability, not simply throwing others under the bus. And it is why, as Christians, one should not omit the parts of the bible one does not like....the inconvenient parts, I suppose. (frustrated face)

[Immanuel Can]

Unless I've misunderstood your meaning you seem to be claiming that Christians are held to certain standards of morality which are in some sense "objective". Before I lay this absurd claim to waste will you confirm that this is indeed your intended meaning.

I have a view on that question, of course. But the answer is no, I was not speaking of what I claim about that. For in point of fact, I was doing the opposite. I was questioning AS's admission that she "holds Christians to a higher standard," and asking how that can possibly make sense for someone who doesn't actually believe standards exist.

So the problem to be solved is not my assertion of objective standards -- it's actually HERS.

[Immanuel Can]

"Belief is the antithesis of knowledge.".... Bertrand Russell.

Russell may have been a decent mathematician, but if you read any biography of him, you'll see that on the moral level he was a train-wreck. That doesn't disqualify him in mathematics, but it greatly calls into question that he had any personal knowledge about "how to tell right from wrong."

Moreover, in regard to metaphysics, he was embarrassingly uninformed. I first encountered his book "Why I Am Not A Christian" at university. It was on the table of a pro-Christian campus group, who were only too happy to have it there for sale or conversation. And when I looked into it, I realized why: it was the most badly thought-out sort of argument he could have floated, clearly based on very little knowledge of his subject and premised on very weak logic. They had the book there because it was so easy to defeat.

So I wouldn't bother with Russell, if you want to know what Christians think. He never really knew.

[attofishpi]

A ridiculous statement when you consider knowledge is often gained from the seed of a belief.

Would you care to offer an example?

Sure there are far too many to mention:-
We gained the knowledge of how to take our first steps as a child, from the belief that we could.
We gained the knowledge of how to light a fire, from a belief that we could.
We gained the knowledge of how to fly, from a belief that we could.
We gained the knowledge of how we could communicate across the globe near instantaneously, from a belief that we could.
etc, etc, etc...

"Imagination is greater than knowledge." - Albert Einstein.
"Imagination is redundant without belief in the pursuit of knowledge." - attofishpi.

[Immanuel Can]

IC, I mostly agree...

Thank you, sir: kindly said. Yet if occasion appears, you are welcome to disagree as well, with no hard feelings raised. You've 'earned your spurs' on that, I think.