How To Tell Right From Wrong

[Immanuel Can]

I got the idea from in my brain when I read you. You don't seem to realize how often you back up scripture with..."everyone think this so it must be true."

Well, then, please kindly inform your brain I don't believe it. I'll say it again carefully, so you can explain it to yourself:

1) When the question is, "What do people THINK is true?" then taking a poll of numbers answers the question.

2) When the question is "What is TRUE?" numbers make no difference at all.

I do believe I've kept the two claims distinctive in all I have said. If at any point I have not, please understand me to have misspoken. The above expresses what I believe to be the truth about the numbers issue.

I just don't get it. It seems to me as if you aren't reading the scriptures for yourself. You are having them paraphrased for you by the church.

You're way off. My friends would probably tell you you could not be more wrong. Rest assured, I'm no "company man," no comfortable follower of other people's views. But I needn't convince you of my own character here -- it's far more important whether what I'm saying is true: for even were I nothing but a sleepy sheep, I might accidentally baaaa out the truth once ...and then my sheepiness would have no impact on whether or not that was the truth.

Truth stands or falls on its truthfulness...not on my character.

But if you aren't aware of this, then you won't be held accountable by God. So I guess it doesn't make a difference anyway.

Ah, but that's not so. Even in common law, we have this axiom: "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

This is why, for example, if a police agent pulls you over on the highway and says to you, "Do you know you were going 100 in a 50 zone?" you are not allowed to say, "I didn't see the sign." The sign was there. You were responsible to read it. If you did not, then you voluntarily remained ignorant, when you could have -- and should have -- known better. So they'll throw you in jail and impound your car.

Likewise, if we could have known what God said, and we didn't care enough to find out what He said, then we are without excuse. In any case, God explicitly says this is so. And here I will include the quotation, since you said you like me to do so, rather than merely giving your the reference to look up for yourself (It's Romans 1:18-21, by the way):

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

So whatever a person COULD HAVE known, and SHOULD HAVE known, they have no excuse not to know. At least, that's how it works in the Biblical perspective. Ignorance of the Law is no excuse: I'm responsible for what I very easily could have come to know, not just what I, in my obstinacy, decided to let myself know.

And so are we all.

[artisticsolution]

Well, then, please kindly inform your brain I don't believe it. I'll say it again carefully, so you can explain it to yourself:

1) When the question is, "What do people THINK is true?" then taking a poll of numbers answers the question.

2) When the question is "What is TRUE?" numbers make no difference at all.

I do believe I've kept the two claims distinctive in all I have said.
I do believe I've kept the two claims distinctive in all I have said. If at any point I have not, please understand me to have misspoken. The above expresses what I believe to be the truth about the numbers issue.

Okay, fair enough. I hope you can see I do the same. I have studied the bible before, and my understanding of it has always been drastically different from the majority. It's been a while so I thank you for this conversation between us...it just reconfirm to me that I am following him the way he wants me too. ..honestly and blindly. Not saying you have to do that...just saying I know that is what's expected of me.

I have always been frustrated, because I see Christians actions and thoughts sometimes are vastly different from what the scripture so obviously say out right. Christians always seem to have a spin on why you don't have to follow one thing or the other.

I can't do that. Everyday I ask him for guidance, then eventually, he will show me another scripture that confirm my belief in him and his word. And like i said, " my beliefs are always confirmed when i vompare them to scripture. Having said that, do you think I should follow Christians in that case...or do you think I should follow what God is saying to me in my heart? Do you see where I am coming from?

[Immanuel Can]

I am following him the way he wants me too. ..honestly and blindly. Not saying you have to do that...just saying I know that is what's expected of me.

Why "blindly"? What makes "blindness" into a virtue? God doesn't ever use that expression, nor anything like it, as an adjective before the word "faith."

In fact, Who made blind men see?

And what's "honest" about being "blind"?

It seems to me more "honest" if we open our eyes to what God has plainly showed us, rather than insisting on remaining "blind."

I have always been frustrated, because I see Christians actions and thoughts sometimes are vastly different from what the scripture so obviously say out right. Christians always seem to have a spin on why you don't have to follow one thing or the other. I can't do that. Everyday I ask him for guidance, then eventually, he will show me another scripture that confirm my belief in him and his word. And like i said, " my beliefs are always confirmed when i vompare them to scripture. Having said that, do you think I should follow Christians in that case...or do you think I should follow what God is saying to me in my heart? Do you see where I am coming from?

Yes. I'm all for sincerity...and honesty too. But perhaps you need to ask yourself how you expect God to "speak" to you and show you what sincerity or honesty require. You're right to look to the Scripture as a starting point: but really, we can read the Bible as so many do, with cold and indifferent hearts, and get nothing out of it; or we can read it with a view to receiving its message and applying what it asks us to do...and for those people, it becomes a rich store of guidance. It is not our hearts that tell us what is true: our feelings...even strong ones...can lie. Instead, it is the Word of God mediated to us by a sincere heart that is the source of the revelation of God.

That means that everything depends on the "heart" with which we come to it. It's almost as though God refuses to let us approach Him indifferently, factually and statistically, if our real interest is not in knowing Him but in dismissing Him. He seems very interested in the relationship side, and without it, not interested in confirming anything at all.

Faith opens up new evidence. Anselm famously said, "I believe in order to know." He did not mean that faith has to be blind. He meant that there are some things we simply will never see until we're willing to accept the available evidence AS evidence. Before we can consider the evidence for whether or not God exists, for example, we have to be willing to at least entertain the possibility that He COULD exist: otherwise, we will simply explain away anything that appears to be evidence. We will regard clear proofs as anomalies, rather than part of the data, and will set them aside instead of including them in our judgment.

And the same is true in human relationships: for example, if some man is a terminally suspicious husband, then no number of evidences of fidelity on his wife's part convince him of her faithfulness -- because the real problem is in his heart, not in hers. He will not see the evidence of her faithfulness in past AS evidence for her ongoing reliability of likelihood of future fidelity. Nothing convinces him, no matter how plain and abundant the evidence. But if he is willing to be convinced, her past faithfulness and her present commitment should give him good reason to believe she is likely to remain faithful in future, or at the very least, reassure him that she has, so far, actually BEEN faithful.

The upshot of what I'm saying is this: I think you're right to think that the state of our hearts is the key. God said, "You shall find me when you seek me with all your heart." The trouble is that many of us today are not seeking at all -- far less, with "all our hearts," -- and so we say, "Where is God?" as if we expect Him to show up and convince us against our wills and wishes. He does no tricks for cynics. After all, He's God. He does not stoop like that, and if He did, we would surely not respect Him anyway.

But those who seek with an honest and a good heart always find. So I say, just keep seeking.

[artisticsolution]

Why "blindly"? What makes "blindness" into a virtue? God doesn't ever use that expression, nor anything like it, as an adjective before the word "faith."

In fact, Who made blind men see?

And what's "honest" about being "blind".

I mean blindly follow what he says not what society tells me he says. Lol...if you think you are going to 'assimilate me into the way Christians think. ..you are wasting your breath. ..as I have been shown the ' light' so to speak. ..by the grace of God.

I couldn't be more positive. ..and I think you know deep down I am correct. As wasn't it you who told me I should help my sis be a better Christian?

[Immanuel Can]

I mean blindly follow what he says not what society tells me he says.

There might be times when we cannot "see" what God is doing at the time, but for the most part, what makes you think God wants you "blind" in any sense?

[artisticsolution]

I mean blindly follow what he says not what society tells me he says.

There might be times when we cannot "see" what God is doing at the time, but for the most part, what makes you think God wants you "blind" in any sense?

What makes you think there is a God?

As for me, I will trust his will, not mine. I'm just going to be honestly blind and follow my heart until he chooses to show himself to me. And if he never chooses to do that, I will still love him. And if he chooses to send me to hell, I will still love him.

I know you can't understand that...but I can and that's all that matters.

Besides, if he sends me to hell, then I am sure to know a whole bunch of people there...lol.

[Immanuel Can]

Besides, if he sends me to hell, then I am sure to know a whole bunch of people there...lol.

It seems unlikely. Which is actually a terrific reason for not finding out personally.

If God is the source of "all good gifts," as the Bible says, what makes you think there are any "good gifts" left in a place where everyone has chosen to be as far from the Source as they possibly can be? And isn't friendship one of the very greatest "good gifts" we have?

For that reason, a good many people think that the chief quality of that place is aloneness. I would imagine they're probably right.

[artisticsolution]

Besides, if he sends me to hell, then I am sure to know a whole bunch of people there...lol.

It seems unlikely. Which is actually a terrific reason for not finding out personally.

If God is the source of "all good gifts," as the Bible says, what makes you think there are any "good gifts" left in a place where everyone has chosen to be as far from the Source as they possibly can be? And isn't friendship one of the very greatest "good gifts" we have?

For that reason, a good many people think that the chief quality of that place is aloneness. I would imagine they're probably right.

To quote a friend, " Everyone knows all the good shopping malls are in Hell! "

[Dalek Prime]

Then I must be in heaven. The malls around me suck.

[marjoram_blues]

Wow, AS.
What a game of scriptural table-tennis.

You talked of being able to 'feel the holy spirit' - and also, using your brain.
Can you explain what you mean by 'feeling the holy spirit'?
Can you give an example of how this holy feeling helps you in deciding 'best' action - or the difference between 'right' and wrong' when it comes to everyday issues. I'm thinking of your 'Aaaaaaaagh!' thread.

Many difficult moral issues are dealt with at various levels - I talked earlier of the different ethical codes/guides (eg in medicine, the military), which help people - of all faiths and cultures - to keep to 'right' action/behaviour, and attempt to prevent harm, in a particular field.
These are not perfect and for some the Christian code ( as per the commandments) outweighs any other consideration. Both systems (religious and secular) might have standard rules but need to adapt to circumstances. And they do. And they do this out of necessity, practical reasoning - and not because of dogmatic text, with its varying interpretations, or some 'holy feeling'.

I've returned to this thread - and the PN forum - because I think it is right that I keep up some kind of an input, even if only on Sundays.
How would you explain to a child the difference between right and wrong action? Would you really quote scripture, would you even call on some holy spirit for guidance? Perhaps. Others might not, but would/could come to a similar thought and explanation.

'How to tell right from wrong' - your thought experiment is a good one. You wanted to address Christians alone- but then proceeded to describe arising - atheist or agnostics as being C/christian.

AS wrote: You know who is one of the most "true" Christian I ever knew? An atheist/militant agnostic in this forum with the handle Arising_uk. Does that surprise you? You wanna know why? Because he tells the 'truth'....and if he doesn't know the 'truth', he will tell you he doesn't know.

However, what is important for such 'christians' is not god or judgement day, heaven or hell.
What is important is the here and now.
I would be interested to know how this thought experiment would be received on a Christian forum. IC came here - where would he, or any other PN Christian, suggest you take your thought experiment - if you want to 'tell the world' about your interpretation; your understanding of God and Scripture.
It's worth following up. Ping-Pong on.

[artisticsolution]

Wow, AS.
What a game of scriptural table-tennis.

You talked of being able to 'feel the holy spirit' - and also, using your brain.
Can you explain what you mean by 'feeling the holy spirit'?

I am glad you got to that. I believe the holy spirit is as important as God and Jesus...it's the Trinity that make up God in Christianity after all. I was getting to that but neither Me or IC could agree on the faith issue. Everyone talks about God and Christ...but rarely do they talk about the holy spirit...which I understand as, 'personal relationship' with God. It is how I feel there is a God....I realize that feeling the way I do may come from a whole variety of things...including being raised christian, being an artist and thinking the way I do, a brain tumor, physical oddities, etc.

I know, we can't know, what we don't know. But for me, my awareness of my "truth" (which is the way I sort things out in my head) has been a process. My seeking of the truth...as it applies to myself only (Not others) It is totally about accountability, strip-myself-down-to-bare-bone-self-deprecating humble myself before a God that I don't know exists. (Hard to believe from what you know of me on the outside..I know...as the outer me is a little more headstrong than the inner me lol).

This whole thread was started as a little piece of intimacy of my world view on things...and how I learned to understand right from wrong as a child being raised in a Christian home (I include Catholic into Christianity, most Christians have a problem with that because of their member's only mentality, but the fact remains, Catholics believe in the OT and the NT, it's just the rituals and petty things they disagree on...). It's the only way I knew how to cope with a family so nuts that they used to pray the evil spirits out of their children when they came home from school.

You can't make this stuff up...I kid you not. Can you imagine how frightening that is to a small child? To be sent everyday to an place that houses a devil so horrible that you have to be prayed over...to keep you safe in everyday occurrences? Child abuse is what that is, and I knew it was wrong even back then. (I might add this was not my story but my cousin's. I lived other crazy shit as every Christian I know has had horrible ideas they come up with in the name of God. Mainly, I think, because they lie to themselves and others that they 'know' what God wants. Then they do that thing in Gods name. Which is chicken shit imo)

I keep asking them about truth....and they always have a reason why they don't need it because God says this or that. They always have a way to show how the scriptures tell them to do one crazy thing after the other, that basically adds up to lies in my book.

IC is no different, except for he is a little more sane. At least that is my take on what I call lying....saying you have evidence of a God, when you have none. To me that is lying. To him, the everyday things that have happened in his life are evidence of God. Maybe he can say that with confidence and truth (I can't know what he knows) But for me, it is a lie. I don't get it. If I were to say that...I would be lying. So when he says it, the only thing I can think...based on my stringent reality of being honest with myself, I ask....is he is lying but doesn't know it? I hope that makes sense. I am not accusing him...I am only going on my knowledge of right and wrong in my head. 'If this/then this'...I mean...I can only understand things to the best of MY capability...right?

Can you give an example of how this holy feeling helps you in deciding 'best' action - or the difference between 'right' and wrong' when it comes to everyday issues. I'm thinking of your 'Aaaaaaaagh!' thread.

OMG! I was just going to that thread for an update! My anger at Ann has subsided. And I feel like a shit heel for getting into an argument with her. I don't need to behave like that...and you kinda showed me that in the aaaaargh thread. All I needed to do was put my foot down...and just tell her that is not how things are going down...politely. I will do that from now on. Okay, so what made me change my mind about my anger toward her? Ann just learned she has cancer. It's stage one they think and she is having surgery on Monday. Despite all of her weaknesses, I still love her. Her son and my son are turning 21 this week. We talked the other night about how long it's been that we were pregnant together. She was terribly afraid...and i am sad. Life is too short to fight about business or money or whatever. (I will post in the agh thread later and tell you how I handled the other stuff).

Many difficult moral issues are dealt with at various levels - I talked earlier of the different ethical codes/guides (eg in medicine, the military), which help people - of all faiths and cultures - to keep to 'right' action/behaviour, and attempt to prevent harm, in a particular field.
These are not perfect and for some the Christian code ( as per the commandments) outweighs any other consideration. Both systems (religious and secular) might have standard rules but need to adapt to circumstances. And they do. And they do this out of necessity, practical reasoning - and not because of dogmatic text, with its varying interpretations, or some 'holy feeling'.

I agree. That the world does not need my concept of God or the holy spirit....this is just how I cope. I raised my children without religion. I allowed my mom to take them to church until they no longer wanted to go. I would have conversations with my kids, when my mom was having a fit about their teacher reading Harry Potter to them (Some Christian's here think Harry Potter books are evil.) I would tell them that just because they love someone, they don't have to agree with that person. That they can still love and disagree. And that I didn't agree with grandma that Harry Potter books are evil. I did this because in their lives they are going to meet a whole variety of different thinkers. I wanted to show them they don't have to think like anyone else or believe what another wants them to believe. It's okay to be themselves and love others despite differences.

One of my sons is an atheist/ agnostic...and the other son, I think is like me...agnostic...but that could change either way in the future...and that is fine by me. Whatever makes 'em happy/mentally healthy.

I've returned to this thread - and the PN forum - because I think it is right that I keep up some kind of an input, even if only on Sundays.

I will take it! You know I love to hear from you always!

How would you explain to a child the difference between right and wrong action? Would you really quote scripture, would you even call on some holy spirit for guidance? Perhaps. Others might not, but would/could come to a similar thought and explanation.

No, I never quoted scripture to my kids. I don't know how I taught them right from wrong, now that you mention it...lol...just from casual chit chat? Just from loving and trusting them? I don't know. Now that you mention it...maybe it was my husband who I allowed to direct our children in that matter? He was raised in a rational home and I think I allowed him the lead there as he was both reasonable and organized(?) and since I knew my thinking was probably skewed by my upbringing? I dunno...I do know that when something would pop into my head...no matter where we were...I would mention it to my children as a side note so I wouldn't forget later. One day we were all sitting down in a restaurant and I blurted out, "Please promise me that you'll never do drugs." Just out of nowhere...lol. My husband joked, "and always wear a condom and stay in school!" Then he turned to me and laughed, "There...that should cover it...as parents...we're done!" (he makes me laugh at my craziness when he puts it into perspective!)

'How to tell right from wrong' - your thought experiment is a good one. You wanted to address Christians alone- but then proceeded to describe arising - atheist or agnostics as being C/christian.

Oh no...I wasn't describing Arising as a Christian. Sorry if it sounded that way. No I was comparing him to a Christian. Here is what I meant. Christians believe that if you don't accept Christ then you are going to hell despite any good thing you do. You could be the best person on earth and be sent to hell. I DO NOT believe that for one second. That is the lie they tell you to assimilate....and they show the scriptures they think prove that...but then...at the same time...they will admit they have no way of knowing who is going to heaven and hell and that at the last second a person could be shown the way and accept Jesus and go to heaven.

I don't believe that. Instead, I believe in my heart, that if there is a God, then that could not be true...that their interpretation was sloppy thinking when it comes to what God really said.

Here is the reason I think that. In my mind, if there is a God, he is a good God...not a bad God. If he was a bad God AND/OR good and bad God....there would be no need for a 'Satan". If he was a Good God, as most Christians believe (which again...is the basis of this thread and why I was talking to Christians only) then it stand to reason he would be better than me. Right? I mean this is what Christians believe...that we humans are miserable wretches and we need jesus to save us or we can't enter the kingdom of heaven.

If that is the case, and God is morally superior to me, then why would he do mean things that even I would not do? It doesn't add up. It's nuts/incomprehensible to even think that God would send a Good person to hell. And then to top it all off....they point to scriptures that says...the 'good' are blessed with faith as a gift! As in, the bad people who were simply born without that gift...are just fucked from day one. 'This is your destiny...the one God has chosen! You sir, Go to hell!' WTF?!? Crazy talk if you ask me...it doesn't even make sense.

Shouldn't morality at least make sense? The God I know in my heart is not into trickery. If I am a miserable wretch, morally speaking, and even I would not send Arising to hell, then my God could not either. Simply because he is morally superior to me...if he exists at all.

If that's what they are getting from the bible...that 'good people go to hell'....no wonder there is such a thing as atheist! I think, as humans, most of us are able to reason. To take a beautiful think like the bible...and then twist it into something unrecognizable...well, in my mind that has nothing to do with God...and everything to do with mankind's evil side. I know there is a better way to put it...but I can't think of how at this moment...lol.

However, what is important for such 'christians' is not god or judgement day, heaven or hell.
What is important is the here and now.
I would be interested to know how this thought experiment would be received on a Christian forum. IC came here - where would he, or any other PN Christian, suggest you take your thought experiment - if you want to 'tell the world' about your interpretation; your understanding of God and Scripture.
It's worth following up. Ping-Pong on.

I am not understanding any of what you mean here. Please explain.

[marjoram_blues]

M: However, what is important for such 'christians' is not god or judgement day, heaven or hell.
What is important is the here and now.
I would be interested to know how this thought experiment would be received on a Christian forum. IC came here - where would he, or any other PN Christian, suggest you take your thought experiment - if you want to 'tell the world' about your interpretation; your understanding of God and Scripture.
It's worth following up. Ping-Pong on.

AS: I am not understanding any of what you mean here. Please explain.

Lol - I'll try...and thanks for all your work here in explaining and thinking stuff through - it is fascinating. And challenging.
OK, I think... I'm talking more about the general question of Why - rather than the How - it is important to attempt to differentiate right from wrong. Or to consider what actions will have positive or negative consequences in the 'here and now' - and so affect/ be judged by self/others/the law and not on some after-death deity decision day.

I think using your thought experiment is good up to a point. If it works to make Christians reconsider what might be considered immoral or wrong thoughts/actions/behaviour. However, if you appeal to the morality, or otherwise, of fixed objective commandments - or even some idea of Godliness, or Holy spirit - is that not just further cementing the rock of ages past? Isn't brain-work better?
Or perhaps you have indeed worked out the best strategy to challenge some Christians' own judgement/personal thought process. Go to their 'root' command, if their thinking is clouded, use what they know, or think they know for sure. Hmmm...

What do I know? Of course, even though they 'get' your point, they may resent that you think you know better - given your apparent different or closer relationship with God. Some kind of a holy spirit is working through you to reach them... What happens when other people's 'feelings of holy spirit' collide...? You have to have something that outshines ? Dazzle them with science/knowledge - or is that a bad word?

[ even an atheist/agnostic can be an agent of God, apparently. How he uses us. I was called an angel just t'other day by someone who prayed for an intervention. I only spontaneously made a phone call, listened and talked. So, just when I thought I had free-will, and was flying by the seat of my pants, it turns out my actions were God-driven. Sheesh ]

Re taking your test to a Christian forum - wouldn't that give you greater feedback and exchange of views, if all you want to talk to are Christians?
God, how exhausting is this...all of this...thinking business.

Sorry to hear about Anne - look forward to reading more.
but what is this:

....I realize that feeling the way I do may come from a whole variety of things...including being raised christian, being an artist and thinking the way I do, a brain tumor, physical oddities, etc.

a brain tumour?

[artisticsolution]

a brain tumour?

"It's not a tumor!" Said like Arnold Schwarzenegger in "kindergarten cop".

What I meant is that I a rational enough to know my beliefs can be caused from a whole variety of things in my life. I tried to explain this once to tbieter, when he asked me something about faith...that was something akin to believing in unicorns. ..and I said, well...if it was me...and nd I saw a unicorn in person. ..I would first doubt my health...like maybe I was getting a tumor or was becoming psychotic or something. ..I would not believe it was truth...well unless I was so far gone from sanity that there was no turning back. Which is why I believe Christians are lying to themselves when they say ' faith is having evidence.'

More later...

[thedoc]

I just don't get it. It seems to me as if you aren't reading the scriptures for yourself. You are having them paraphrased for you by the church.

You're way off. My friends would probably tell you you could not be more wrong. Rest assured, I'm no "company man," no comfortable follower of other people's views. But I needn't convince you of my own character here -- it's far more important whether what I'm saying is true: for even were I nothing but a sleepy sheep, I might accidentally baaaa out the truth once ...and then my sheepiness would have no impact on whether or not that was the truth.

I should point out that unless you are reading the scriptures in the original texts, Aramaic, Greek, Latin? you are reading the paraphrased words of the translator. So in that sense I would suggest that everyone is reading a paraphrased version.

[artisticsolution]

So then, this idea faith as an evidence , is akin to a mental handicap/illness then, if not out and out lying lying.

And here's why I think that....

Let's suppose God came to me in the flesh and said, "Hey AS, I want you to kill your son for me...to prove you love me." First, I would believe I was off my rocker. I would be going to the doctor, psychiatrist, hospital, etc. and tell them I was having hallucinations.

I would not believe it was real. I do not have the faith of Abraham. I will be the first to admit it....and you want to know why? I'll tell you...lol...

Because that story, I believe...is in the bible for a reason. The story wasn't about God wanting Abraham to kill Issac....I mean come on...do people actually think God was all, sitting on the sidelines with some popcorn...painted face all sports style waiting for the drama to unfold? Please. No... the reason for the story is to be able to know your own heart and ponder the seriousness of our own faith...our own seeking of morality.

The story of Abraham and Issac, is not about a petty little God who would do something like that. If a person translates this story into one of "God is a dick" or "God wants us to do 'evil' in order to show we love him", then it shows just where that persons heart is...in the gutter. On the other hand, if a person sees that story as a fable, meant to show a man's faith in God so strong that it became absurd, and see how this should be a warning to the sane among us...that the insane among us...could not be responsible for their actions...if they are not capable of understanding...even our law works like that in the secular world. People are not considered to be held accountable for their actions if they are insane or mentally handicapped in anyway. It's reasonable. The bible is written in a way to show us the reasonable from the irrational. A workbook of confusing stories (to say the least!) in order to understand ourselves better and what it means to be a moral person. You have to admit...the idea of morality in itself is totally complicated and changing concept that it will never be solved, to any one collective consensus of right and wrong. I don't know why anyone would even want to try! It's impossible.

The way Christians view faith, shows a lot about who they are. Do they know themselves? Are they capable of understanding right from wrong? Do they allow society to tell them what is right and wrong or do they have a higher conscientiousness? Surely, a child's mentality of right vs. wrong can not be judged using a scale of that of an adult? right? Well...at least that is common sense to me. Although I realize I have not explained myself very well. it's very complicated.

Atheists don't have a patent on morality either though. But the way some talk you would think they think they are better than Christians in knowing right from wrong. Maybe they are in some ways...but that is neither here no there. The fight the 2 sides have going are completely missing the mark. Atheists don't understand that you can't talk to a christian and make him listen by starting with the premise, "There is no God" It's just not possible, as I don't think atheists understand how hard wired God is in our brains. Once the idea of a God is in there....I don't know of a way of getting him out. So we live in fear...whether we are honest about that is another matter.

I was telling Arising once that, I noticed a huge difference in my children vs me and my sis as children and my sister's children, who were all raised with a strict christian upbringing. And I noticed that my children had way fewer nightmares than she and I did...and way fewer than her kids do. And the only difference I see is religion. I asked Arising, if he or his children had a lot of nightmares or anxiety, and he said, he did not and they did not. It lead me to wonder if there is more anxiety in Christians than non Christians. It would be an interesting study if they haven't done it already . Except they could not tell Christians they wanted to see if they have more anxiety than non Christians, then it would not be accurate results. I think Christians would "lie for God" meaning they would not admit the truth, if they thought it was going to look bad for Christianity as a whole.

Now mind you...I am not saying they are liars per se...just that they might not be capable of thinking any other way...but that that is how hardwired we are, as Christians, we are trained to be 'servants of the lord'. It would be like you hiding your child from a child killer. You would do what you had to...right or wrong to save your child's life. THAT is how in-bedded Christianity is to Christians. They think it IS right to lie...that God wants them to do it to protect mankind from not ever seeking Him...and that if they told the truth... that they aren't sure about a God....Then not only will they go to hell...but it would ruin God's plan...

oh man...I am trying to let you in on what having a Christianity psyche entails but it's so complicated...there is this underlying thing that's hard to explain unless you have been there to see it and know it inside yourself, and not only that...be able to stand back from it, to describe it with alternative eyes. I am trying to describe it from an neutral bystanders viewpoint that has been Christian, but also...honestly like relating a secret club handshake but only way more taboo. But I can hear Christians freaking out about what I am saying...lol...as they can't admit it or they will be going against God or something. Oh dear...

Maybe it's like Wittgenstein said,

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."

What do I know? Of course, even though they 'get' your point, they may resent that you think you know better - given your apparent different or closer relationship with God. Some kind of a holy spirit is working through you to reach them...

But I don't 'know better...that's the whole point...no one person knows 'better'. If they did. everyone would have a consensus. And I certainly don't have a 'closer relationship to God". I can't tell you that I am close to God...when I don't know one exists for sure. The only thing I can tell you, is what I see wrong with the current interpretation of the bible. and why so many wars are started in God's name.

There are ways of understanding the bible on the simplest of terms...and that is with purity of heart (side note : Which by the way is a great book by k...'purity of heart is to will one thing"...loved it!). Anyway, When reading the bible...if it causes you to think..."Man I am righteous in a world of sinners!" Then you are not reading it with a pure heart. If it cause you to say, "I think God wants me to be a Christian soldier and get rid of evil" Then you are not reading it right.

People, even atheists, need to remember....the bible is supposed to be good. It is not supposed to be read, like, "God is a dick." As we already have Satin who is supposed to be the dick. WE HAVE A DICK! HIS NAME IS SATAN! LOL God is the antithesis of the devil. If Christians spout negative bullshit that seems evil to an atheist...then atheists needs to understand that is all the christian's interpretation. It is not God...literally. It is up to an individual to take from the bible what they want. If there is not purity of heart there in the first place...do you think there is going to be a righteous understanding of the scriptures? No, of course not....be it Christian or atheist doing the reading.

What happens when other people's 'feelings of holy spirit' collide...?

War usually. You can lead a horse to water....

You have to have something that outshines ? Dazzle them with science/knowledge - or is that a bad word?

Science is not a bad word for me. I think science is a gift from God (if there is a God). Can you imagine a world without science?! OMG! I wouldn't want to! Science is the ultimate progression and exploration of our universe! If there is a God...he is a scientist! How else could he have made the heaven and the earth? By magic? Please! Of course he used science...as there is no such thing as magic.

Re taking your test to a Christian forum - wouldn't that give you greater feedback and exchange of views, if all you want to talk to are Christians?

Oh God no! I have no interest in this Christian insanity....everyone wanting to save everyone else's eternal soul! I have had enough to last a lifetime. And it is my turn for some peace here on earth before I die. I mean, shit...if I am going to hell, then I might as well have a few good years before I go! LOL

Which brings me to my other thought...why on earth would Christians in my country want to punish homosexuals for going 'against God" while here on earth...when they believe those same people are going to burn in hell for an eternity!? How cruel is that to add insult to injury? wow.

Again...purity of heart is to will one thing. If Christians believe in 'free will' how bout they start there and will one thing...purity of heart.