We are saving the Greeks by the European Central Bank

[Dalek Prime]

I'd love to see the shit hit the fan. I'd love to see all third world countries just say "no more payments".

The anarchist in me would go along with this although the humanist Leo has some reservations. The short-term pain would be borne mostly by those on the bottom rungs of the socio-economic ladder, although one might well ask what's so new about that? Whether those on the bottom rungs would be the long-term beneficiaries of such a default would remain to be seen but in the best of all possible worlds they probably would be. However the social unrest stirred up in the interim might levy a cost burden too heavy for many third-world countries to bear.

I know, but something's got to change. Big pain now, or death of a thousand cuts.

[Obvious Leo]

I know, but something's got to change. Big pain now, or death of a thousand cuts.

It would have been better to let the axe fall on the banks in 2008 instead of bailing them out with money which they've simply printed since. If anything this has only made the problem worse. Letting them collapse would have resulted in a far worse world-wide recession than the one we saw but it would have been over by now and I'm in no doubt that a brand-new set of rules for international banking would have been formulated. In the situation as it stands no such rules exist so the next collapse is inevitable.

[Dalek Prime]

The whole financial system is based on fabrication. It needs to go. Totally agree that the banks should have been left to fail. We even bailed out the banks in Canada, contrary to popular belief, and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp still has our banks 100+ billions in toxic assets, meaning Joe Canadian does. And this was done by our present PM, after the election writ was dropped, in secret. No one reported it, save one expelled Conservative MP.

http://www.investmentreview.com/expert- ... -2008-5592

We're all dupes in this. And either we remain dupes out of fear, or let it go where it should. Either way, it ain't gonna be pretty.

[Obvious Leo]

The irony of it all is the the bailouts weren't engineered to stop the economy from going into recession but rather to stop the stock market from collapsing. This was a remarkably successful strategy because the share market has never been better and those who derive their income from trading in stocks and shares have been coining it hand over fist. However this idea of making money out of making money is nothing but a gigantic Ponzi scheme because none of this money ever flows back down into the real economy. Real businesses with real ideas to create real jobs and real wealth have been starved out of loan markets while the financial markets are simply awash with cash sloshing all over the world doing NOTHING. Voltaire would love it.

[Dalek Prime]

I recall our former bank governor, and now England's, Mark Carney, chastising the rich and big business for sitting on over a trillion dollars in Canada, doing nothing with it. And that's just the tip.

[Obvious Leo]

And that's just the tip.

For sure. Like Australia, Canada is just a small fish in a very big pond. I read recently that as much as 15 trillion dollars worldwide is continuously on the move just in high-speed currency trading. These trades generate no wealth apart from tax-free bonuses for the traders and the entire risk is borne by smaller economies whose currencies are forever being tossed up and down like corks in the ocean. Obviously this is a huge disincentive for business to invest in such economies.

[Dalek Prime]

The banks here were bailed on the premise that lending would increase. Yet the market remains tight for the average borrower, though the lending rate was kept down too. That, of course, doesn't include the credit cards the banks keep pushing on everyone. Those, of course, are too easy to get.

A fellow once advised three things to avoid financial ruin. The first I'll omit, but the other two were avoiding credit cards like the plague, and not trying to keep up with the Jones'. Of course, as you said, it all boils down to living within means.

[Obvious Leo]

The idea of using monetary policy to keep interest rates low was ostensibly to encourage borrowing by business but this was never the problem and it has brought about the opposite result. The problem in recent years is that precious little cash is made available to business because far greater returns are on offer in the consumer economy, as you point out. People are spending money they haven't got to buy shit they don't need so they can impress people they don't like.

The fucking world's gone mad, Dalek, and the banks are reaping the spoils.

[Obvious Leo]

I've never owned a credit card and neither has any other member of my family. Debit cards operate in exactly the same way and cost nothing.

[Dalek Prime]

All the things everyone should have been taught, but weren't, and learned the hard way, assuming the lessons were indeed learned. Which, judging by the enormous amount of consumer debt, they weren't.

[Brit Dems]

My net worth is a positive. Zero debts. Don't use credit.

I'm the same, mate, and have been since I paid my first house off 25 years ago. My wife and I worked incredibly hard to pay this off as quickly as possible but it only took us just over 5 years to do it and we've never had a moment's financial worry ever since, despite the fact that we've both only ever worked part-time ever since. Our net worth isn't much to brag about but at least it's ours and no bastard can come and take it off us and it's all down to a single simple rule. If you haven't got any money you can't buy anything. I'm also proud of the fact that both of our kids live their lives according to exactly the same principle.

Did you work hard in good faith that there would be just rewards for your efforts?

Justice creates a good working environment.

[Obvious Leo]

Did you work hard in good faith that there would be just rewards for your efforts?

Justice creates a good working environment.

You're a funny man, Brit, if you think that people in this world get rewarded according to how hard they work.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Its a sick world.
When the crisis hit what happened?
We sent round a shed load of cash to help the banks.
But now one of our oldest allies, and a country that represents the heart and soul of Western culture is being hung out to dry.
Why is it that we cannot help our friends, but in 1945 we helped our enemies by declaring a jubilee?

[bobevenson]

It is absolutely improper for the government of any country to spend a single cent of taxpayer money in support of another country for any reason, no ifs, ands or buts!

[artisticsolution]

I'd love to see the shit hit the fan. I'd love to see all third world countries just say "no more payments".

The anarchist in me would go along with this although the humanist Leo has some reservations. The short-term pain would be borne mostly by those on the bottom rungs of the socio-economic ladder, although one might well ask what's so new about that? Whether those on the bottom rungs would be the long-term beneficiaries of such a default would remain to be seen but in the best of all possible worlds they probably would be. However the social unrest stirred up in the interim might levy a cost burden too heavy for many third-world countries to bear.

I'd like to see all the mid to 'bottom runger's' say "no more payments, no more taxes." That would hit all where it hurts, I think.