Do atheists read the primary sources?

[Dalek Prime]

One can be a church-going 'Christian' and be an atheist.

Agreed. We call them "cultural Christians" (Muslims, Buddhists, etc) in the Religious Studies field. They follow their religion because they were raised to, not because of any deep-seated belief.

Even I consider myself a cultural Christian, my parents being nominally Anglican, and the wider society being of a Christian heritage and character, though I was not raised to be anything, and left free to choose my own belief path, though I couldn't help but be influenced by that wider cultural environment.

[Melchior]

One can be a church-going 'Christian' and be an atheist.

Agreed. We call them "cultural Christians" (Muslims, Buddhists, etc) in the Religious Studies field. They follow their religion because they were raised to, not because of any deep-seated belief.

There is no reason needlessly to antagonize relatives and friends by denouncing Christianity at Christmas, for instance. It's uncouth.

[Dalek Prime]

One can be a church-going 'Christian' and be an atheist.

Agreed. We call them "cultural Christians" (Muslims, Buddhists, etc) in the Religious Studies field. They follow their religion because they were raised to, not because of any deep-seated belief.

There is no reason needlessly to antagonize relatives and friends by denouncing Christianity at Christmas. It's uncouth.

Where the heck did that come from, Melchior?

[ReliStuPhD]

One can be a church-going 'Christian' and be an atheist.

Agreed. We call them "cultural Christians" (Muslims, Buddhists, etc) in the Religious Studies field. They follow their religion because they were raised to, not because of any deep-seated belief.

There is no reason needlessly to antagonize relatives and friends by denouncing Christianity at Christmas. It's uncouth.

[Dalek Prime]

Still don't get it. Who's denouncing Chritianity at the family Christmas dinner? And is it okay if it's Christmas, and your at home with your Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Sikh, Jainist, Buddhist, Atheist, Shinto, Taoist or Zoroastrian family? You guys have no idea how insular and closed minded that sounds to anyone outside your belief system, because you live in a culture predominantly made up of people like you ie. culturally Christian.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Practically every rural village or country town in regional Australia has one or more churches of various Christian denomination, all of which were built well over a century ago. Almost all of these have now been converted to up-market B&B's or boutique art and craft galleries. The few little old ladies still interested in such entertainments nowadays often need to travel substantial distances to socialise with others of similar interest. In country areas at least religious belief is almost universally regarded as a quaint cultural remnant of a forgotten past. In the capital cities the situation is somewhat different because of the influx in recent decades of migrants from the Muslim world. However this will only last for a generation or so. The first generation migrants may be anxious to stay fast to their cultural traditions but their kids will be more interested in the sport, booze, dope and naked women on the beaches. One could hardly blame them.

Despite the fall of religion and religious practice, there is still a knee jerk reaction to the census form when it asks which religion.
Despite a brief and wonderful instance of a rise in "Jedi" especially in my home town, the banning of that answer by the authorities has not dimmed the rise of "none", if the census form includes such an option. Most people tick the religion of their parents despite not meeting the minimum requirement of attendance at a place of worship (now reduced to birth, marriage and death).
In practical terms, the religiosity of the average census nominated "Christian" from 100 years ago compared to today, the rate of people who would have been seen as atheist now would put them in the majority.
Maybe god has changed to stand by allowing this permissiveness?

[Hobbes' Choice]

Still don't get it. Who's denouncing Chritianity at the family Christmas dinner? And is it okay if it's Christmas, and your at home with your Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Sikh, Jainist, Buddhist, Atheist, Shinto, Taoist or Zoroastrian family? You guys have no idea how insular and closed minded that sounds to anyone outside your belief system, because you live in a culture predominantly made up of people like you ie. culturally Christian.

Lots of people have very good reason to denounce Xity at the dinner table and do.
And when has Christmas had anything to do with religion?
But i'm not sure what point you are making here.

[Dalek Prime]

Still don't get it. Who's denouncing Chritianity at the family Christmas dinner? And is it okay if it's Christmas, and your at home with your Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Sikh, Jainist, Buddhist, Atheist, Shinto, Taoist or Zoroastrian family? You guys have no idea how insular and closed minded that sounds to anyone outside your belief system, because you live in a culture predominantly made up of people like you ie. culturally Christian.

Lots of people have very good reason to denounce Xity at the dinner table and do.
And when has Christmas had anything to do with religion?
But i'm not sure what point you are making here.

I was replying to Melchior's post.

There is no reason needlessly to antagonize relatives and friends by denouncing Christianity at Christmas, for instance. It's uncouth

[Obvious Leo]

There is no reason needlessly to antagonize relatives and friends by denouncing Christianity at Christmas, for instance. It's uncouth.

It's not often I find myself on the same side of the fence as Melchior but I surely do on this occasion. I see no reason to denounce the festivals of any religion just because we smirk at the primitive beliefs which underpin them. In my country Xmas has religious significance to only a tiny minority of the population but it has a cultural significance to almost everybody, INCLUDING many who actively practice non-Christian faiths. Xmas in Australia is all about family togetherness and bonding and these are traditional values with very ancient roots which should never be casually dismissed as irrelevant. For most people it's just an opportunity to drink too much and make fools of themselves in an environment where they can do so without being too harshly judged for their foibles.

I've always admired the US tradition of Thanksgiving, which seems to serve the same cultural purpose without all the vulgar trappings of commercialism. This was also once an exclusively religious festival but I very much doubt that many people see it that way nowadays. Perhaps a Yank could correct me if I've read this wrong.

[Hobbes' Choice]

There is no reason needlessly to antagonize relatives and friends by denouncing Christianity at Christmas, for instance. It's uncouth.

It's not often I find myself on the same side of the fence as Melchior but I surely do on this occasion. I see no reason to denounce the festivals of any religion just because we smirk at the primitive beliefs which underpin them. In my country Xmas has religious significance to only a tiny minority of the population but it has a cultural significance to almost everybody, INCLUDING many who actively practice non-Christian faiths. Xmas in Australia is all about family togetherness and bonding and these are traditional values with very ancient roots which should never be casually dismissed as irrelevant. For most people it's just an opportunity to drink too much and make fools of themselves in an environment where they can do so without being too harshly judged for their foibles.

I've always admired the US tradition of Thanksgiving, which seems to serve the same cultural purpose without all the vulgar trappings of commercialism. This was also once an exclusively religious festival but I very much doubt that many people see it that way nowadays. Perhaps a Yank could correct me if I've read this wrong.

Well that depends. If you get invited, are you allowed to refuse the invitation on the grounds that you don't want to participate in some of the rituals?
Maybe you are invited to a solstice and don't like seeing an animals slaughtered in the altar? Surely that would be an insult to refuse?
Maybe you are invited to Thanksgiving but are a vegetarian and can't stand turkey?
Or maybe you can't stand people saying "grace".

You silence is taken as acquiescence. That would be a unforgivable stance. So either you are honest or you are insulting. In life you have to make a choice. And traditions need to be abandoned/

[Hobbes' Choice]

I've always admired the US tradition of Thanksgiving, which seems to serve the same cultural purpose without all the vulgar trappings of commercialism. This was also once an exclusively religious festival but I very much doubt that many people see it that way nowadays. Perhaps a Yank could correct me if I've read this wrong.

You've obviously never been to a Thanksgiving in the USA. There is plenty of commercialism involved.

[Obvious Leo]

You've obviously never been to a Thanksgiving in the USA. There is plenty of commercialism involved.

Indeed I've never been in the USA at Thanksgiving time and I was unaware of this. My illusions have been shattered and it seems the shopkeepers have in fact taken over the world.

Well that depends. If you get invited, are you allowed to refuse the invitation on the grounds that you don't want to participate in some of the rituals?

If such rituals conflicted with my own personal ethic I would have no choice but to refuse. However in many cases one can attend without participating in the rituals. One of the disadvantages of getting old is that one gets to attend a lot of funerals, many of which are still held in churches regardless of whether either the deceased or the family were churchgoers. I have no problem standing silent in a church without mumbling my way through any of the vacuous prayers because when I look around this is what almost everybody else is doing. Most people just want this bit over with so they can get into the free food and drink and tell a heap of lies about what a shit-hot bloke old Joe was. Funerals are not for the dead. Funerals are for the living, so if I don't go to Joe's funeral he won't come to mine.

Maybe you are invited to Thanksgiving but are a vegetarian and can't stand turkey?

Actually I'm not a vegetarian AND I can't stand turkey, but I can pig out with the best of them on whatever else might be on offer. If somebody were to invite me I would most certainly accept.

Or maybe you can't stand people saying "grace".

You silence is taken as acquiescence. That would be a unforgivable stance.

I haven't sat down to a meal where "grace" has been said since my childhood, and even then this would only have occurred a handful of times. In my country to do such a thing in front of a guest would be regarded as most uncool.

[Melchior]

Still don't get it. Who's denouncing Chritianity at the family Christmas dinner? And is it okay if it's Christmas, and your at home with your Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Sikh, Jainist, Buddhist, Atheist, Shinto, Taoist or Zoroastrian family? You guys have no idea how insular and closed minded that sounds to anyone outside your belief system, because you live in a culture predominantly made up of people like you ie. culturally Christian.

Lots of people have very good reason to denounce Xity at the dinner table and do.
And when has Christmas had anything to do with religion?
But i'm not sure what point you are making here.

That there's a time and place for everything, dumbass.

[Dalek Prime]

So funny, Melchior.

[Melchior]

So funny, Melchior.

It would be just like a vegetarian crying and smashing things when they bring out the turkey, calling everyone beastly, cruel, and heartless for destroying this beautiful innocent creature.