Is tribalism the most enduring heritage from the past?

[duszek]

Some people have moral principles so different from ours that it is impossible for us to empathize with them. We prefer to run for cover.

Can you empathize with someone like Dr. Lecter ?

[spike]

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word 'tribalism' in the thread title. It happened before that the readers of this thread thought that I was talking about native tribes of some sort.

I was actually talking about the "us" versus "them" mentality.

The lack of empathy toward our common heritage: humanity.

There is certainly a big lack of empathy and humanity among many in the Middle East.

[Ned]

Some people have moral principles so different from ours that it is impossible for us to empathize with them. We prefer to run for cover.

Can you empathize with someone like Dr. Lecter ?

I don't know who this Dr. Lecter is, but I assume he/she is an 'evil' person.

I wasn't talking about individuals but groups.

And, yes, I know there are 'evil' groups as well, but if we discount the 'evil' bit, than we can concentrate on the run-of-the-mill phenomenon of tribalism.

For example, England and France were allies and enemies through history and their respective soldiers were killing the "others" during wars, and hugging them during alliances. They were killing when they were told that the "other" tribe was evil and they were hugging when they were told that the "other" side were the good guys.

US and Vietnam, US and China are recent examples.

Countless more in human history.

I am sure you know many examples yourself.

[spike]

I was just thinking about entropy and empathy in relation with tribalism and the Middle East. The two words are sort of alike. But they can mean the total opposite. Entropy increases disorder and empathy increases order.

Tribalism in the raw, like in the Middle East, increases entropy and disorder. Tribalism is a closed system. Closed systems increase entropy and disorder. Empathy works in reverse. It increases order by breaking down the barriers of tribalism, by opening it up to other ways. Empathy increases networks of communication and cooperation with others. Entropy is a closed shop and doesn't encourage networking with others on a significant scale, hence deterioration like regions in the Middle East.

Empathy evolves complex systems like the Internet, democracy and capitalism. Entropy encourages simple things. Complex things have a better chance of survival because they develop alternative systems. Entropy doesn't build up back-up systems of sustainability and that is why tribalism can be such a drag if it is allowed to be the corner stone of existence, like in the Middle East.

If Civilization can reduce the entropy of tribalism and increase the empathy of cosmopolitanism in the Middle East it would be a big step on the road towards peace in the region.

[Ned]

Empathy evolves complex systems like the Internet, democracy and capitalism. Entropy encourages simple things. Complex things have a better chance of survival because they develop alternative systems. Entropy doesn't build up back-up systems of sustainability and that is why tribalism can be such a drag if it is allowed to be the corner stone of existence, like in the Middle East.

spike, Can you enlarge on this a bit more.

If Civilization can reduce the entropy of tribalism and increase the empathy of cosmopolitanism in the Middle East it would be a big step on the road towards peace in the region.

spike, a VERY interesting and intriguing idea.

[spike]

spike, Can you enlarge on this a bit more.

In which way?

[Ned]

Empathy evolves complex systems like the Internet, democracy and capitalism.

I can't see how empathy evolves capitalism.

I thought it was the exact opposite.

How does empathy lead to capitalism?

[Hobbes' Choice]

Tribalism is the groan of the monkey, the scourge of mankind: expressed in patriotism, nationalism, sport, and historical and religious exceptionalism.
Unless we can unravel this plague we will eventually kill ourself and the planet upon which we live.

[Hobbes' Choice]

Empathy evolves complex systems like the Internet, democracy and capitalism.

This is wrong on so many levels it is hard to know where to start.

Capitalism and empathy are antithetical.
Evolution is an effect, not a cause.

I think that will do for now.

[duszek]

Empathy (an honest effort to understand someone, to follow his way of thinking) leads to cooperation across nations and languages.
This allows internet, capitalism and many other things to flourish.

Skippo ha raggione. Bravo.

[Ned]

Capitalism does to its victim's bodies exactly what religion does to its victims minds.

They usually flourish together.

No empathy is required.

[spike]

I can't see how empathy evolves capitalism.

I thought it was the exact opposite.

How does empathy lead to capitalism?

The way empathy led to capitalism is from a sense that humanity needed an economic system that would best address the common material needs and aspiration of all. It is not a perfect system but in comparison to other economic system, like communism, it is the one that has done the best job.

Capitalism is not all the dog-eat-dog system that many envision. It does inspire empathy. And it is a system that has evolved to address our common economic needs and aspirations. It evolved as a way for the majority to share in the bounties of industrialization. It is also a system that protects private property, which most of us aspire to. There is a humanity in it in that the majority of us feel bad for those who don't have but want to improve their lives. There has been no other economic system that has raised the level of comfort and ownership, which has come from a shared commonality of values.

Even if you may not think of the Golden Rule when you think of capitalism nevertheless it is entrenched in it. We want people to treat us in the same way we would treat them, without stealing from each other. Capitalism abides by the rule of law. Overall it demands accountability and transparency so that it can be as fair and just as possible.

Empathy has temper the harsher aspects of capitalism over the years to make it more a level playing field. If you look back at the Great Depression you will see how people of compassion worked to improve capitalism so that if be fairer for all.

[Brit Dems]

Sorry, Imp, history does nothing but.

Nothing substantial ever changes -- only in degrees and then the cycle starts again.

We are still the same cavemen with nuclear weapons this time around.

Civilization is a very thin veneer.

Yes.

We all have to make the veneer much thicker. It is the only way.

[Ned]

If you look back at the Great Depression you will see how people of compassion worked to improve capitalism so that if be fairer for all.

I did look back.

Some people worked very hard to improve the chances of survival for the victims of capitalism.

How, and why, do you think the Great Depression happened?

Some of the victims of capitalism praise their exploiters exactly the same way as most victims of religion do.

As I said, often they flourish together.

[David Handeye]

Skippo ha raggione. Bravo.

ha ragione, only 1 g, duszek.

"raggione" is meaningless.