Do atheists read the primary sources?

[Melchior]

So it's a cylical universe extending back infinitely, or, it's a supranatural entity standing outside the order of things.

Neither seems particularly plausible so I'll hold out for another option.

It seems to me that if you're holding out for a third option, Henry, then you're going to be holding out for a hell of a long time. This strikes me as the most obvious binary option imaginable. Either the universe has existed forever or it hasn't and I'm buggered if I can see how you can squeeze a third option out of this proposition. Furthermore if you prefer to believe that it hasn't existed forever then you automatically accept that it came into existence as a consequence of some transcendent cause, whether you choose to define such a cause or not. I'm happy to settle for Occam economy and nail my colours to the mast of the eternal universe option because transcendent causes lie beyond the scope of either scientific or philosophical enquiry. Once we venture into such questions we are no longer doing philosophy and if we're no longer doing philosophy we may as well all pack up our philosophical crap and go fishing.

It really isn't that simple. Time began with the universe. There was no 'before', so there can be no 'forever'.

[Melchior]

When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful,
A miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.
And all the birds in the trees, well they'd be singing so happily,
Joyfully, playfully watching me.
But then they sent me away to teach me how to be sensible,
Logical, responsible, practical.
And they showed me a world where I could be so dependable,
Clinical, intellectual, cynical.

There are times when all the world's asleep,
The questions run too deep
For such a simple man.
Won't you please, please tell me what we've learned
I know it sounds absurd
But please tell me who I am.

Now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical,
Liberal, fanatical, criminal.
Won't you sign up your name, we'd like to feel you're
Acceptable, respectable, presentable, a vegetable!

At night, when all the world's asleep,
The questions run so deep
For such a simple man.
Won't you please, please tell me what we've learned
I know it sounds absurd
But please tell me who I am.

[thedoc]

So it's a cylical universe extending back infinitely, or, it's a supranatural entity standing outside the order of things.

Neither seems particularly plausible so I'll hold out for another option.

It seems to me that if you're holding out for a third option, Henry, then you're going to be holding out for a hell of a long time. This strikes me as the most obvious binary option imaginable. Either the universe has existed forever or it hasn't and I'm buggered if I can see how you can squeeze a third option out of this proposition. Furthermore if you prefer to believe that it hasn't existed forever then you automatically accept that it came into existence as a consequence of some transcendent cause, whether you choose to define such a cause or not. I'm happy to settle for Occam economy and nail my colours to the mast of the eternal universe option because transcendent causes lie beyond the scope of either scientific or philosophical enquiry. Once we venture into such questions we are no longer doing philosophy and if we're no longer doing philosophy we may as well all pack up our philosophical crap and go fishing.

I think the third option is that the universe came out of nothing, without any supernatural cause. In other words the Universe just happened, and God didn't do it. It doesn't matter if it's not probable, it only has to happen once and here we are. Saying it's not logical, doesn't make any sense either, the Universe is not bound to be limited to human logic. I would submit that the Universe, God, or whatever can do as it wants, whether we like it or not. Human logic is not the end all, or be all, of the laws of nature.

[Obvious Leo]

It really isn't that simple. Time began with the universe. There was no 'before', so there can be no 'forever'.

How can something begin without a cause?

By the way you ought to have attributed the Supertramp lyrics. You wouldn't want people to think you were a poet.

I think the third option is that the universe came out of nothing,

Ex nihilo, nihilo fit is one of the most ancient principles in philosophy, doc. You'll never make the argument stick.

[ReliStuPhD]

...transcendent causes lie beyond the scope of either scientific or philosophical enquiry. Once we venture into such questions we are no longer doing philosophy...

Transcendent causes are absolutely within the scope of philosophical inquiry. Aristotle and Kant, for starters.

[ReliStuPhD]

Ex nihilo, nihilo fit

A picky point on the Latin, but the second is "nihil." So ex nihilo nihil fit. I know, I know. Declensions suck

[thedoc]

Ex nihilo, nihilo fit

A picky point on the Latin, but the second is "nihil." So ex nihilo nihil fit. I know, I know. Declensions suck

But if you are going to say it, at least say it correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbI-fDzUJXI

[thedoc]

I think the third option is that the universe came out of nothing,

Ex nihilo, nihilo fit is one of the most ancient principles in philosophy, doc. You'll never make the argument stick.

Wasn't expecting to, just wanted to propose a 3rd possibility.

[ReliStuPhD]

Wasn't expecting to, just wanted to propose a 3rd possibility.

The problem is that it's not a possibility. Nothing comes from nothing.

[Obvious Leo]

But if you are going to say it, at least say it correctly.

Quite right, doc, and thank you for pointing it out. As it happens I did know this but I wrote in haste and carelessness and I've always been a lousy editor. Since I have a well-deserved reputation for gratuitous pedantry myself I'm delighted to find a brother nit-picker in the village willing to do such things pro bono publico.

[ReliStuPhD]

But if you are going to say it, at least say it correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbI-fDzUJXI

One of the best scenes ever from one of the best movies ever!

[henry quirk]

"...what are "water bugs" "

Little buggers that skitter along the surface tension of puddles like speedboats.

#

"and what do you do with them once you find them?"

Catch 'em, look at 'em, comment on them...try to make 'em race each other (which is dumb on our part, but we try anyway).

[henry quirk]

“…there lies the fate of every man who tries to scam Henry with dancing, singing ham sandwiches.”

HA!

[henry quirk]

"unconvinced-ness" "this is what I believe and I'm sticking to it"

Yeah, good summation or distillation of my position.

[henry quirk]

'ganz andere…hrhshndhurbdi'

Alien, and –- perhaps –- unrecognizable?

If god is wholly 'other' then how to recognize him 'as' god?

That is: if god is so removed from me that he is unrecognizable as god then how am I to relate to such a thing?