The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

For all things philosophical.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Ned
Posts: 675
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:56 pm
Location: Canada

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Ned »

Skip wrote:It's appropriate in the particular instance of criminal law to remove confrontation, because this, above all, is a matter of the citizen vs the machinery of the state. That is not an economic issue: it's a moral and psychological one. The government exists to protect all citizens - it's not supposed to be the enemy of some in order to befriend others; it's not supposed to take up sides. It's supposed to keep peace and order among all the people; it's supposed to mete out justice impartially.
That's an excellent point, Skip -- I never quite thought of it this way.

Thanks! :)
User avatar
Lawrence Crocker
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:44 pm
Location: Eastman, NH
Contact:

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Lawrence Crocker »

This thread has relevance primarily to the courts of the common law tradition. Adversarialness plays a different and diminished role in civil law regimes, e.g. in Europe.

That so much of the discussion has been about criminal law invites some amplification. Even in common law jurisdictions, the criminal process is adversarial in a modified respect as compared to the process in contract, tort, or the other areas of the civil courts (not to be confused with courts of the civil law system).

The defense counsel in a criminal case is very nearly an unlimited advocate. He may, and often should, try to bring the jury to believe the opposite of what he knows to be the truth. There are some limitations. He cannot ethically put in evidence he knows to be fraudulent or induce, encourage, or abet witnesses in giving testimony he knows to be false. It is, however, ethically permissible to make a prosecution witness that he knows to be telling the truth seem, in the eyes of the jury, to be an abject liar.

Prosecutors are advocates bound by some important restrictions. New prosecutors are always told that their job is not to get convictions, but to do justice. Any experienced prosecutor will have dismissed cases when she found that the evidence didn’t support conviction.
A prosecutor must have a higher degree of confidence in the truthfulness of a witness than would a defense counsel before putting the witness on the stand. An ethical prosecutor does not make a defense witness appear to be lying if the prosecutor believes that the witness in fact is telling the truth. (The prosecutor’s time line would be easier if the jury didn’t believe the witness that the defendant got to the party by 9 pm, but the witness is probably telling the truth, and the prosecutor will just have to show that it is possible to get across town in the time that leaves.)
It is still an adversarial process, but a modified and asymmetrical one. In a contract case, it is symmetrical.

Most participants are less pessimistic than the general public about the right people getting convicted and the right ones acquitted in the criminal trial system. Even those juries that seem to reach their verdict by an odd route usually arrive at the right destination. It happens that utterly innocent people are convicted by juries, but it does not happen statistically often. It happens a little more often that guilty people are acquitted, but this is something we should expect with the higher burden of proof on the prosecution (and the prosecution’s more stringent ethical constraints). It is the outlier cases that are newsworthy, and that we remember, as in the tragedy of the prisoner found innocent by DNA evidence after a couple of decades of incarceration.

The same level of confidence is not shared by participants in convictions by plea bargaining, which is to say the great majority of convictions. Still most of those convicted are guilty, at least of something, but the incentives for the innocent to plead guilty are often very great.
The very poor are usually defended by very competent, if always overworked, public defenders. (It is those not quite poor enough to qualify for a public defender who have the weakest representation in many parts of the United States.)

More important than the courtroom prowess of the well paid defense counsel is the time and resources she has for out of court investigation. When the defense seems to have a better command of the facts than the prosecution, the prosecution is in trouble.
In civil cases a disparity in wealth tends to make a far greater difference than it does in criminal cases. The poor can rarely expect to come out well in a contract case against a big company.

The justice of system of justice is a large and difficult question theoretically, politically, and practically. The justice of the adversary system is simpler if not simple. For a criminal trial, the thing of greatest concern is that the innocent are not convicted. This the common law countries do pretty well. Whether the inquisitorial system on the Continent does better, is an empirical question, though one methodologically challenging.
When what is at issue is plea bargain rather than trial, the adversarial nature of the proceeding is very much less, and the risk of innocent conviction is much greater. If you have any interest in the distantly related question whether plea bargaining is constitutional in the United States, you might look up my blog in a couple of days. http://www.LawrenceCrocker.blogspot.com. There are a couple of preparatory posts there already on the constitutionality of trial by combat and of bench trials.
In civil cases the adversarial system usually favors wealth.
Ned
Posts: 675
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:56 pm
Location: Canada

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Ned »

Lawrence, thank you for the detailed and very illuminating post.

There is a lot in worth thinking about. :)
Skip
Posts: 2818
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:34 pm

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Skip »

One great concern in the criminal justice system of the US is politics. To my mind, no post in law enforcement or judiciary should ever be elective. Especially not in a country that's big on corporate campaign financing and short of impartial reportage.
The other is a history of legal, political, economic and social discrimination. The proportions of "usual suspects" in US custody are depressingly predictable.
And the lover of justice positively bristles at the idea of private prisons - with a mandated quota.

In Canada, as elsewhere, miscarriages of justice are far more likely to favour the guilty getting away with a crime than the innocent being convicted. My experience with forensic witnesses is of a high level of competence and integrity; and so, I think, are jurors and judges. When innocent people are convicted, the great bulk of blame lies with the investigating officers. Changing the trial format wouldn't make the police any more competent, diligent or impartial. (Another egregious injustice is holding suspects without charge or an opportunity to defend themselves. But that's just more politics!)
Whether the inquisitorial system on the Continent does better, is an empirical question, though one methodologically challenging.
One thing I can't in good conscience advocate is turning every case of burglary into a Royal Commission.
Obvious Leo
Posts: 4007
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 1:05 am
Location: Australia

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Skip wrote:To my mind, no post in law enforcement or judiciary should ever be elective.
To an Australian this practice also seems antithetical to our notions of justice.
Skip wrote:And the lover of justice positively bristles at the idea of private prisons - with a mandated quota.
If it weren't for the crime business, the drug business and the weapons business the US economy would collapse. Treating people like shit is the great American way which ensures that rich people can continue to get richer. The land of the free is an iconic example to the rest of the world which continuously demonstrates how NOT to define the social contract.
Ned
Posts: 675
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:56 pm
Location: Canada

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Ned »

Obvious Leo wrote:The land of the free is an iconic example to the rest of the world which continuously demonstrates how NOT to define the social contract.
Leo, you made me curious.

How should one define a social contract?

(It is one of my favourite subjects -- see the thread: "Proposal for a new social contract ")
Obvious Leo
Posts: 4007
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 1:05 am
Location: Australia

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Ned wrote: How should one define a social contract?
How long is a piece of string, mate? To me the social contract is simply the system of laws, ethics and conventions by which the society operates. However when economic Darwinism is allowed to supervene this system then the various laws, ethics and conventions become beholden to it. This is by no means a new problem in human history but the modern world has become too dangerous a place to be manageable in this way and from the perspective of an outsider the US has elevated economic Darwinism to a high art form for which the entire world must bear the cost.
Ned
Posts: 675
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:56 pm
Location: Canada

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Ned »

Leo, you wrote
how NOT to define the social contract.
That mean you have an idea of how one should.

So how is it?
Obvious Leo
Posts: 4007
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 1:05 am
Location: Australia

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Obvious Leo »

Ned wrote:Leo, you wrote
how NOT to define the social contract.
That mean you have an idea of how one should.

So how is it?
I describe myself as a village socialist, which basically means we should back to our tribes. The nation state as constituted under the Westphalian model is a dying institution which won't survive the internet age but I fear our grandchildren are cursed to live in interesting times.
Ned
Posts: 675
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:56 pm
Location: Canada

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Ned »

Brilliant!

I agree! :)
User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8360
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Obvious Leo wrote:
Ned wrote: How should one define a social contract?
How long is a piece of string, mate? To me the social contract is simply the system of laws, ethics and conventions by which the society operates. However when economic Darwinism is allowed to supervene this system then the various laws, ethics and conventions become beholden to it. This is by no means a new problem in human history but the modern world has become too dangerous a place to be manageable in this way and from the perspective of an outsider the US has elevated economic Darwinism to a high art form for which the entire world must bear the cost.
Gosh, I agree.
Except that there is far more to Darwinism than that. What you are talking about is laisez-faire "survival of the fittest" capitalism. Darwin also talked about intra-group, and intra species co-operation, as well as competition.
Modern corporate capitalism engineers unfair trades, restrictive import strategies, insider trading, monopololies... All sorts of dirty tricks which pay no respect for the land and resources it uses, as it can move on and wreck another ecosystem with consequence.
At least if a species gets too big it is forced to reduce in size.
User avatar
Hobbes' Choice
Posts: 8360
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:45 am

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Obvious Leo wrote:
Ned wrote:Leo, you wrote
how NOT to define the social contract.
That mean you have an idea of how one should.

So how is it?
I describe myself as a village socialist, which basically means we should back to our tribes. The nation state as constituted under the Westphalian model is a dying institution which won't survive the internet age but I fear our grandchildren are cursed to live in interesting times.
Is this racism?
If we stay in our tribes (whatever they are), we are doomed to get picked off by big corporations.
~Unless we act as a species, we will always be prey to entities that are more powerful than us.
Advocate
Posts: 3480
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Ned post_id=203178 time=1431701377 user_id=9566]
I hate the adversarial “justice” system.

It is not based on trying to find the truth, but it is based on WINNING, regardless of truth, regardless of guilt or innocence, regardless of harm done or not.

It is based on lies, theatrics, emotional manipulation and loopholes to get the guilty off or punishing the innocent if that is what it takes to win the case.

What other options are you aware of?
[/quote]

This is one of the oldest debates but it used to be about poetry and rhetoric. As long as emotion is Anywhere in the system, justice is not.
Advocate
Posts: 3480
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Advocate »

[quote=Starfall post_id=203201 time=1431706985 user_id=10865]
The problem with justice is that it has no option but to be subjective. Justice is responsible for deciding what is acceptable and what is not, and the line between those two can be as unclear as the line between good and evil. Not only that, but "acceptable" is a notion that depends on the individual, one that can vary from person to person. We are trying to use objectively a notion that is subjective by nature, resulting in the adversarial justice system you speak of. As it is not absolute, it is easily corrupted by human greed and pride. I do not think there is an alternative system that can somehow root out this corruption, as the problem is not of the system but of justice itself. As Pascal said, "Justice is subject to dispute, might is easily recognized and not disputed. Hence, we cannot give might to justice."
[/quote]

If we define justice as things being the way they should be, then we can look at the social contact and understand how things should be. Right now it's layer upon layer of obfuscation, bandaids, misunderstandings, malfeasance, graft, lies, changing definitions, obscure case law, a new rule every 3.2 seconds at every level of society - both legal and administrative, etc. As with every other problem in philosophy, there has to be a basic understanding first.
Advocate
Posts: 3480
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: The adversarial “justice” system -- other options?

Post by Advocate »

[quote=thedoc post_id=203249 time=1431720583 user_id=8079]
A lot depends on who is charging who. If a really bad person charges a good person with a crime, the courts will restrict what the good person can present as evidence to demonstrate what a bad person they really are, in favor of the person making the charges. Victim status is more dependent on who brings charges against the other person.
[/quote]

It's more about physical evidence. If you haven't got any, it doesn't matter how tight you are because the courts done care about common sense, logic, or right and wrong, they care about compliance and weight of evidence (without understanding the relative weights of evidence no less).
Post Reply