How religion can harm young minds...

[Ned]

And I still have not received an answer to this simple and logical question.

Not now and not when I was 14 years old.

I wonder why not?

According to gospel, 'god' is supposed to be both omnipotent and omniscient.

But how could he be both?

If omnipotent, then he could do anything he wanted, including changing his mind about the future. But that means that he wasn’t omniscient before, because his knowledge of all past and future events were incorrect: unless he knew exactly how he would change his mind, in which case he couldn’t be omnipotent because he would have to change his mind according to his omniscient knowledge, which would provide him with no freedom at all.

[duszek]

There is some logical problem in this question, I suppose. A liguistic problem, I suppose.

A little Johnny could ask: if God is good why does he allow my belly to ache when I eat five ice-creams ?

[Ned]

There is some logical problem in this question, I suppose. A liguistic problem, I suppose.

A little Johnny could ask: if God is good why does he allow my belly to ache when I eat five ice-creams ?

Sorry duszek, this does not answer my question, which is a perfectly logical and straightforward question.

Two factual statements, made by the christians, are in complete logical contradiction with each other.

If one is true, then the other can't be.

And vice versa.

And that is just one example of how religion can harm young minds.

They are told in essence: "do not trust logic, trust me and the bible".

[duszek]

The attributes of omnipotent and omniscient are human attempts to grasp the essence of God. But because human mind is restricted these attempts are very imperfect.

One try:
God always knew that he was going to change the future in a certain way.

[Ned]

Your try does not resolve the straightforward contradiction between two factual statements.

If omnipotent, then he could do anything he wanted, including changing his mind about the future. But that means that he wasn’t omniscient before, because his knowledge of all past and future events were incorrect: unless he knew exactly how he would change his mind, in which case he couldn’t be omnipotent because he would have to change his mind according to his omniscient knowledge, which would provide him with no freedom at all.

[duszek]

Because you assume that knowing something eliminates the possibility to change it.
If you make a mental effort perhaps you can overcome this problem.

And what about Christians being wrong about this ? Or putting it not quite correctly ?

The Church was wrong about the sun moving around Earth for centuries.

[Ned]

I am waiting for some honest admission that the two factual statements:

- god is omnipotent
- god is omniscient

are in a logical contradiction with each other.

If one is true, then the other can't be.

And vice versa.

[thedoc]

As for the number on your ignore list, I won't let it affect my sense that you're a pretty level-headed guy regardless.

Sure, you theists stick together!

Nepotism!!!

I just don't get this one at all? RelistuPhD and I are not related, I don't think? And neither of us have any real power to bestow favors, that I know of?

[Ned]

No honest admission?

No explanation?

That's what I thought.

[thedoc]

I am waiting for some honest admission that the two factual statements:

- god is omnipotent
- god is omniscient

are in a logical contradiction with each other.

If one is true, then the other can't be.

And vice versa.

But if no-one else thinks that they are a contradiction, you are not going to get the answer you want to hear. I do hope you're not holding your breath. Also they are not necessarily factual, they are a matter of belief.

[Ned]

But if no-one else thinks that they are a contradiction, you are not going to get the answer you want to hear. I do hope you're not holding your breath.

Evasion, as usual, doc?

[Ned]

Also they are not necessarily factual, they are a matter of belief.

So you hold belief in logically contradictory statements about your 'god'.

That's what I thought.

[Skip]

The attributes of omnipotent and omniscient are human attempts to grasp the essence of God. But because human mind is restricted these attempts are very imperfect.

One try:
God always knew that he was going to change the future in a certain way.

If an all-powerful entity contemplates a chain of events, that chain includes all of the events in that time-line. If he makes a plan, he has already anticipated all the actions and reactions of all the players: there cannot be a change, because everything he intends to do is part of the plan at its inception.

Change to a such a comprehensive plan can only be in response to an unforeseen event. And all-knowing entity can't be surprised or goaded or tricked or cajoled into changing his mind.

(Hint: He didn't know what Satan would do. He didn't know what the serpent said to the woman. He didn't even know why Adam was hiding in the shrubbery.)

[Ned]

Skip, brilliant as usual.

And that's how young minds could be harmed:

They are told: don't trust logic -- trust me and the bible.

A husband arriving home unexpectedly finds his wife in bed with another man. When he confronts her, the wife denies her infidelity and asks indignantly: “Who do you believe, Elmer, me or your eyes?”

Q.e.d.

[thedoc]

But if no-one else thinks that they are a contradiction, you are not going to get the answer you want to hear. I do hope you're not holding your breath.

Evasion, as usual, doc?

I said you wouldn't like the answer.