How religion can harm young minds...

[marjoram_blues]

I am currently reading the book "The Book that Made Your World" by Vishal Mangalwadi. In it the author makes the case that Christianity enabled the sciences to develop in the west while Eastern religions had the opposite effect of not promoting science at all. In the authors opinion it was the Christian mind set that allowed science and technology to develop.

I usually do not oppose any view directly, but this is so wrong that I can't help myself but to do so. European science began to advance as trust in the Catholic Church faltered. Before the Crusades, the word of the Church was law and nobody dared to question it. They used Aristotle's ancient writings as "proofs" of their claims and dismissed positive sciences. This resulted in almost zero technological advancement in Europe during the Dark Ages. In contrast, the Muslim world experienced rapid technological growth in every area conceivable. The discovery of algebra, the identification of many diseases in medicine, the discovery of substances such as sulfuric and nitric acid in chemistry are some examples. The difference between these two communities was that in the Muslim world questioning religious matters was encouraged, while the converse was true in the Christian world. However, in time Islam began to become a dogma and people stopped questioning it. When that happened, the Golden Age of the Muslim world ended. In contrast, new discoveries in Europe shattered the trust in the Church and the power of religion weakened. With that weakening, it was Europe that now experienced technological advancement.

No matter what the content of a dogma is, as long as it isn't questioned it will hinder intellectual growth. Both Christianity and Islam are the same in this regard. The reasons for the stagnation in the Far East, for instance China, are entirely separate from religion and mostly have to do with the prideful isolationism they decided to pursue - sometimes called the view of "Inward Perfection".

Well said, and thanks for saying it.

[Ned]

Why the Greek experiment came to an end has been debated over the centuries. Carl Sagan blames the institution of slavery for the decline. Arthur Koestler suggests Plato’s influence as the main culprit. Roman conquest and Rome’s indifference to pure science was mentioned by Will Durant. The spread of Christianity and the need for suppressing independent thought is often cited as the main reason.

St. Augustine (354 - 430) for example, wrote in City of God, published in 413, that humanity is a heap of depravity, in a state of original sin, and salvation could be found only in contempt for all science and curiosity, as well as contempt for all forms of pleasure (food, music, beauty, etc…).

Historians’ descriptions of the symptoms of decline in the Middle Ages sound frighteningly familiar today:

• gradual disappearance of curiosity
• disuse of basic rules of logic
• uncritical acceptance of unsupported claims by Authority
• appeal to emotions: fear, greed, envy, hate, intolerance
• mental laziness and suspension of intellectual effort
• jeering, and worse, aimed at dissenters
• crusades and wars against heresy
• spying and persecution, torture and execution, by rulers of their own citizens

The wave of discoveries - both in theory and in practical inventions - came to a halt, followed by a gradual mental decline, in a regression to the mysticism and superstition of the pre-Greek era of Egypt and Babylon.

In Isaac Asimov’s Chronology of Science and Discovery, there are 43 entries for the period 585 BC to 140 AD (mostly Greek) but only 23 entries for the period from 180 AD to 1200 AD (mostly Arab and Chinese). A sad report-card, indeed!

Closed minds

Closed minds in a box
reject all that’s outside…
...progress grinds to halt.

[Ned]

In contrast, the Muslim world experienced rapid technological growth in every area conceivable. .

Absolutely right!

Aristotle founded his academy, called the Lyceum, in 335 BC. He and his disciples published about 150 books, 50 of which survived the sacking of Athens, and were found in a pit in Asia Minor by another Roman army circa 80BC. He was highly valued by the Arabs, in whose keeping his books survived European upheavals, until they were rediscovered during the Renaissance by Christian Europe and translated into Latin.

The revival started speeding up when some ancient Greek documents were rediscovered: in 1120 AD, Euclid was ‘found’ again; in 1175, Ptolemy’s book reappeared. Then gradually, ancient texts by Aristarchus, Hipparchus and Democritus became available. As more Catholic scholars spent time in Constantinople and Cordoba, philosophical inquiry, along with technological advances, spread through Europe during the 12th century.

[Ned]

There is no such thing as a Christian Mind!

There were minds in Europe - some very sharp minds - at a time of economic and political ascendency; of confidence, prosperity and optimism. At that same time, the prevalent official religion of Europe was Roman Catholicism.

Another important aspect to consider was that during this time, the ONLY way for poor people's children to have an education was the church, because the Jesuits recruited as many young people as they could to help them spread the 'faith'. Many of these bright young people became priests and, while paying lip service to christianity, they used their brains to study science and discover natural phenomena, many in astronomy.

So, even accomplishments in science by the church does not prove idiotic ideas such as the "Chirstian Mind"

[Hobbes' Choice]

We wish to widen the law once made by us and by our father of blessed memory against all remaining heresies (we call heresies those faiths which hold and believe things otherwise than the catholic and apostolic orthodox church), so that it ought to apply not only to them but also to Samaritans [Jews] and pagans. Thus, since they have had such an ill effect, they should have no influence nor enjoy any dignity, nor acting as teachers of any subjects, should they drag the minds of the simple to their errors and, in this way, turn the more ignorant of them against the pure and true orthodox faith; so we permit only those who are of the orthodox faith to teach and accept a public stipend.

So said the Christian Emperor Justinian as he closed down the Greek Schools of philosophy.

This is the CHRISTIAN MIND in action.

[Hobbes' Choice]

There is no such thing as a Christian Mind!

There were minds in Europe - some very sharp minds - at a time of economic and political ascendency; of confidence, prosperity and optimism. At that same time, the prevalent official religion of Europe was Roman Catholicism.

Another important aspect to consider was that during this time, the ONLY way for poor people's children to have an education was the church, because the Jesuits recruited as many young people as they could to help them spread the 'faith'. Many of these bright young people became priests and, while paying lip service to christianity, they used their brains to study science and discover natural phenomena, many in astronomy.

So, even accomplishments in science by the church does not prove idiotic ideas such as the "Chirstian Mind"

You are making a great case for the "christian mind". The church CONTROLLED all education as made it a crime to teach anything heretical.
Heretical was all the works of Greek philosophy NOT authorised by the Church.
This included the suppression of the Heliocentric system of Aristarchus, in favour of the out-of-date Aristotelean system, and all so-called "Pagan" knowledge from medicine to religion.

Christianity set back intellectual progress by a thousand years. And will do so again if we allow it.

[Ned]

Copernicus worked out the mathematical details, and by 1530, completed the manuscript of the Book of Revolutions - then locked it in his drawer for almost 14 years, not permitting publication until the year he died.

At about 1539, a small summary of this book was published by an associate of his, Rheticus, anonymously, at Copernicus’s request.

The final manuscript was published in 1543, and was not put on the Index (a list of books banned by the Catholic Church) until 1616, when Galileo stirred up controversy with the Aristotelians and some of the Jesuit priests whom he enjoyed taunting. The book remained on the Index for only four years. After the removal of a few sentences which implied that the Copernican system was a proven theory, it was released, allowing people to read, discuss and teach Copernicus. (See Koestler: Sleepwalkers)

[thedoc]

I am currently reading the book "The Book that Made Your World" by Vishal Mangalwadi. In it the author makes the case that Christianity enabled the sciences to develop in the west while Eastern religions had the opposite effect of not promoting science at all. In the authors opinion it was the Christian mind set that allowed science and technology to develop.

Pretty much. The Christian mindset brought with it the notion that Creation was ordered logically and could be understood as such. There's a pretty strong thread of rational inquiry that runs throughout Christian thought. That modern-day atheists don't know this speaks strongly to the fact that (1) the poor job the Church has done of communicating this and (2) atheists are resolute in their determination not to read the primary sources.

Another factor brought by the author is that many traditions devalued labor and extolled meditation and thoughtful contemplation of "Higher Ideals' than the mere production of goods. Christianity, on the other hand, praised the virtue of labor and hard work but allowed the worker the freedom to devise more efficient ways of accomplishing the task. This led to the development of technology and the machines that are now used to accomplish these tasks while the Christian morality directs these activities so as to do as little harm as possible.

[SpheresOfBalance]

In the "Why god created so many idiots?" thread I made the following statement:

Spreading religion is one of the greatest crimes one can commit against individuals and society.... because religion attacks the fundamental rules of rational thinking in people, especially the young and not quite mature minds, and thus can cause great harm.

Do you agree with this statement and, if you do, how do you see the mechanism of the harm happening?

There is no necessary harm in such assertions. Unless one negates telling the "whole" story. In truth one should only present those things of human history that are unprovable, as such. Even going so far as to propose possible reasons for such belief. Especially in this time of much psychological understanding, spelling out the total degree of ignorance of the peoples of that time, in which such unprovable concepts were coined.

As a matter of fact, teaching in such a way as I've described above, is actually beneficial, as it points the students toward a much broader understanding of human nature; a larger portion of the truer human picture. And can only cause them to be more skeptical of seemingly far fetched proposals (theories).

After all, we need far more query, not necessarily unfounded belief.

[Skip]

Another factor brought by the author is that many traditions devalued labor and extolled meditation and thoughtful contemplation of "Higher Ideals' than the mere production of goods.

Which are the lotus-eating traditions? Because, as far as I know, all cultures have produced goods - Like that silk China was so famous for? And the pottery Europeans prized so highly? Intricate gold Inca ornaments? Ivory and ebony carvings? You know, all the stuff Christian England, France and Spain laid waste entire continents to grab for themselves?

Christianity, on the other hand, praised the virtue of labor and hard work

In the vineyards and fisheries of the Lord (barrels of wine trundling and crates of lobster, trundling toward the Vatican, while the peasants were commanded to fast on Fridays and all of February.

but allowed the worker the freedom to devise more efficient ways of accomplishing the task.

That's right! Serfs were famous for the breadth of their liberty and innovative ways.

This led to the development of technology and the machines that are now used to accomplish these tasks

This did? Not the profit motive of industrialists?

while the Christian morality directs these activities so as to do as little harm as possible.

I can't even touch that one with asbestos gloves.

[thedoc]

?

Thankyou for reminding me why I should always log on to this forum.

[Ned]

I can't even touch that one with asbestos gloves.

Hahahahaha!

Looks like I am not the only one who needs asbestos gloves to touch doc's delusions!!

[Skip]

?

Thankyou for reminding me why I should always log on to this forum.

I take that to mean I'm in his ignore list. I have arrived!

Matthew 6:25-34American Standard Version (ASV)

25 Therefore I say unto you, be not anxious for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than the food, and the body than the raiment?

26 Behold the birds of the heaven, that they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; and your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are not ye of much more value then they?

27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit unto the measure of his life?

28 And why are ye anxious concerning raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 But if God doth so clothe the grass of the field, which to-day is, and to-morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Be not therefore anxious, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first his kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Be not therefore anxious for the morrow: for the morrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

[Ned]

Wilmer Nadjiwon is one of my friends.

He is 94 years old and he is the most famous Canadian wood carver.

His carvings are displayed all over the world, including the Canadian Embassy in Paris, France.

He is an Indian Canadian, for years the chief of the Ojibway tribe in Ontario Canada.

A few years ago he published his memoirs under the title of “Not Wolf, Nor Dog”, describing, among other things, how he was raped by catholic priests, as a young boy, in a residential school in Canada.

I was present at his 80th birthday celebration, during which, in his speech, he apologized to his children for not being as loving a father as he would have liked to be, due to the trauma he had suffered as a small child.

Just one story of thousands of others, describing the agony some Christians caused to innocent and helpless victims.

You still think that christianity is all peaches and cream?

I am sure you will say: it's only a few bad apples!

That's what GW Bush said after Abu Gharib!

It is systemic and a logical consequence of an irrational, unnatural and sick doctrine: christianity!!!

[ReliStuPhD]

I am currently reading the book "The Book that Made Your World" by Vishal Mangalwadi. In it the author makes the case that Christianity enabled the sciences to develop in the west while Eastern religions had the opposite effect of not promoting science at all. In the authors opinion it was the Christian mind set that allowed science and technology to develop.

I usually do not oppose any view directly, but this is so wrong that I can't help myself but to do so. European science began to advance as trust in the Catholic Church faltered. Before the Crusades, the word of the Church was law and nobody dared to question it. They used Aristotle's ancient writings as "proofs" of their claims and dismissed positive sciences. This resulted in almost zero technological advancement in Europe during the Dark Ages. In contrast, the Muslim world experienced rapid technological growth in every area conceivable. The discovery of algebra, the identification of many diseases in medicine, the discovery of substances such as sulfuric and nitric acid in chemistry are some examples. The difference between these two communities was that in the Muslim world questioning religious matters was encouraged, while the converse was true in the Christian world. However, in time Islam began to become a dogma and people stopped questioning it. When that happened, the Golden Age of the Muslim world ended. In contrast, new discoveries in Europe shattered the trust in the Church and the power of religion weakened. With that weakening, it was Europe that now experienced technological advancement.

No matter what the content of a dogma is, as long as it isn't questioned it will hinder intellectual growth. Both Christianity and Islam are the same in this regard. The reasons for the stagnation in the Far East, for instance China, are entirely separate from religion and mostly have to do with the prideful isolationism they decided to pursue - sometimes called the view of "Inward Perfection".

First of, you're quoting thedoc there, not me.

As for the actual content of your post, it just shows you have a poor grasp on the history of the church, science, and the philosophical underpinnings that tie them to one another. There's plenty of scholarship out there on the subject. It would behoove you to read some of it. Actually, even Wikipedia will do for starters. Have fun the last section. You know, the one that says you're basically relying on late 19th century propaganda.