Why I became a vegetarian...

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Ned
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Location: Canada

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Ned »

duszek wrote:And what is worth while doing ?
Talking to people on a forum ?
Thinking things over ?
Writing poems about life ?
I have several important projects in my life at the moment: I am writing the second volume of my Physics book: "Modern Physics" (the first one was "Classical Physics" -- all the way to Einstein's Special relativity). Talking to people on the forum is a distraction and less and less enjoyable as more and more of the participants are rude and obnoxious.

However, "thinking things over" and "writing poems about life" are important and I will continue doing so as long as I live.
Ned
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Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Ned »

PS. Often I stop visiting forums for years because it gets too depressing. I was away from this forum for over a year for the same reason.

That's when I wrote the following:

Phantom people

Phantom people fill the ether,
circle the globe at the speed of the light,
bounce around from antenna to cable,
light up so many screens in the night.

Electronic Oujia boards push letters around
as we talk to ghosts in cyber space…
…unsubstantial opinions abound
in this incorporeal race

to win an argument, put down a foe,
have, finally, an opinion heard,
display a brave, scintillating show
to impress our peers: the forum-herd.

I lived in this phantom world
for twelve agonizing years,
compliments and insults hurled
at my poor head, awash in tears.

Time to cut my losses, rejoin my race
in real life: friends, neighbors, lovers,
deal with each other in person: face to face,
touch and be touched like sisters and brothers.

Today is my birthday, a new year begins,
full of plans, promises, adventure,
I will have a life again, among the living,
and abandon this ghostly venture.
David Handeye
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Location: Italia

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by David Handeye »

So, I have to apologize and make my compliments. 72, great mind and you're much more comfortable with online forums than many teenagers I know.
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Ned wrote:
duszek wrote: Does Ned sound like a youth or like an immature person ? What makes you think so ?
Check out the author's bio at the following address (I just love plugging my books any chance I have):

http://www.amazon.com/Humane-Physics-st ... ne+physics

Another you can look at (and BUY!):

http://www.amazon.com/The-Prism-my-Mind ... 169&sr=8-1

However, I wish I was still a youth -- I was happier then (knowing things doesn't help in that regard), never mind the aching joints! :wink:

Allow me to illustrate:

Aging

Age creeps up on me,
stealing me blind,
now I need glasses;
driving on the road
I am so slow,
every old lady passes.

My joints are shot
my hearing’s so bad
you have to say
everything twice.
My hair’s getting thin,
but thrives in the nose:
this is not very nice.

My elbow hardly bends,
my fingers always ache,
don’t even mention my neck!
I don’t run any more,
shuffle is more likely…
…admit it: I am an old wreck.

It isn’t so bad,
when I consider:
I’m not really losing -

because, as I age,
with less and less ‘can-do’
less and less seems worth while doing.


:lol:
Hmmm. I wonder what melchior will have to say about THAT. Perhaps he will post a link to one of his philosophy books. :D
duszek
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Location: Thin Air

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by duszek »

Awash in tears because of phantom people ?
For twelve agonizing years ?

There is a saying that books are the best friends because they can teach you a lot and they are reliable. Seneca also spoke in this way.
A forum can be better than a book because we can ask questions and get more information (if we are lucky).

On a forum one needs to make a wise choice and to focus on the posters who suit one.

I like to present the results of my "thinking things over" on a forum and to see what reactions I get. In real life we can be inhibited by circumstances.
Ned
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Location: Canada

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Ned »

duszek wrote: On a forum one needs to make a wise choice and to focus on the posters who suit one.
That's what the ignore list is for.

Great invention! :wink:

This is a policy decision I made a long time ago: If someone is malicious or rude, they go immediately into my ignore list.

From then on I can't see anything they say and they don't pollute my threads, as far as I am concerned.

I am too old to waste time on malicious idiots. :roll:
Wyman
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Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Wyman »

Ned wrote:
Wyman wrote: My point was that I can't see how logical consistency enters into ethical debates. The core values are not arrived at logically (i.e. 'I believe in God', or 'I believe killing animals is wrong'). Why then are people troubled by inconsistency in applying those values?
You have a good point, Wyman, values are subjective, however, they can be arrived at logically from clearly defined premises.

Once I attempted to do that with some success.

Here is a short version (quoted from my book: "Humane Physics")

Resolving conflicting loyalties

The suggestions I am making in this chapter should be read as guidelines that I have found useful in my own life. No one can follow them with absolute perfection, because human beings have conflicting motivations: what Edward O. Wilson called individual-level selection and group-level selection in our evolutionary process (The Meaning of Human Existence). The result of individual-level evolutionary selection predisposes us to favour our own and our progeny’s survival over the interests of our group. The result of the group-level evolutionary selection motivates us to serve the interests of the various groups we are part of. As he so eloquently states:

“We are unlikely to yield completely to either force as the ideal solution to our social and political turmoil. To give in completely to the instinctual urgings born from individual selection would be to dissolve society. At the opposite extreme, to surrender to the urgings from group selection would turn us into angelic robots - the outsized equivalents of ants.”

With these caveats, I will attempt to define human morality in a logical and systematic way that should serve as compass for future scientists when they struggle with the conflicting loyalties that they will unavoidably encounter.

The human species is a tribal species, just like wolves and gorillas. We depend on one another for survival. The question of loyalty to our tribe often conflicts with our other loyalties: to family, humanity, religion, etc.

The relationship of our social concepts can be seen as follows:

1. We have evolved with nearly identical needs for survival.

2. Our nearly identical needs created nearly identical values.

3. Our nearly identical values created a set of ethical rules (dos and don’ts)

4. Our dependence on one another created a need for loyalty to our ethical rules.

5. Our loyalty to ethical rules created an unwritten social contract apart from the laws of the land as defined by the ruling elite. Those laws are specific to one culture or one nation-state. The unwritten social contract recognizing human interdependence is universal. All cultures through history have known that murder and theft are wrong. Awareness of the rules of the social contract is called our ‘conscience’, or knowing right from wrong. This universal concept of ‘right conduct’ is called morality.

6. The unwritten social contract created standards of socially acceptable behaviour. Any act or attitude that enhances the chances of survival for the group is good. Any act or attitude that harms the chances of survival for the group is bad. Since individual members accept the protection and nourishment of the tribe, the only moral conduct is to seek individual survival/welfare only through the survival/welfare of the tribe. If the two are in conflict, the needs of the tribe come first. We call those who consistently demonstrate their willingness to defend the tribe, even at great personal sacrifice, ‘heroes’. Those who betray the tribe we call ‘traitors’ and treason is usually punishable by death or expulsion.

7. In our complicated world, individuals have simultaneous and often conflicting memberships in many groups: immediate family, extended family, friends, neighbourhood, school, work, religious denomination, political party, social organizations, nation, race, gender, species and life.

8. Resolving conflicts requires prioritizing our loyalties.

9. Since a sub-group accepts the protection and nourishment of the larger group of which it is a part, the only moral conduct is to seek survival/welfare of the sub-group ONLY through the survival/welfare of the containing group. If the two are in conflict, the needs of the containing group come first.

10. In this sense, our ultimate loyalty should be to life. Life on this planet is the ultimate containing group. We are all part of it. It nourishes us all. If we betray it, if we destroy it, we destroy ourselves.
I generally believe in the opposite, more self-centered view. Immediate family comes first, then local community. If the 'containing' group - i.e. federal government - interferes too much or gets too crazy, my family and I will move elsewhere. My wife doesn't eat meat after watching one of those documentaries on how chickens and cows are treated, but she eats fish and other seafood. I eat anything, but when I go fishing, I let them go - especially the big ones - because I feel bad (I'm not kidding). Out of sight, out of mind for me. The only logically consistent moral behavior in my mind would be Mother Theresa or a monk - anything short of complete altruism is hypocritical and is usually self-serving 'feel good' behavior masquerading as altruism.
Ned
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Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Ned »

Wyman wrote:The only logically consistent moral behavior in my mind would be Mother Theresa or a monk - anything short of complete altruism is hypocritical and is usually self-serving 'feel good' behavior masquerading as altruism.
So we are back to either 100% or 0%?

That's not a very useful attitude to society (since no one can do 100%, not even a monk)!
Melchior
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Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Melchior »

Ned wrote:
duszek wrote: On a forum one needs to make a wise choice and to focus on the posters who suit one.
That's what the ignore list is for.

Great invention! :wink:

This is a policy decision I made a long time ago: If someone is malicious or rude, they go immediately into my ignore list.

From then on I can't see anything they say and they don't pollute my threads, as far as I am concerned.

I am too old to waste time on malicious idiots. :roll:
Have you noticed that most of the respondents to your insane rants have ended up there? Who's the intolerant asshole then? Your self-righteous posturing makes me sick.
Wyman
Posts: 973
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Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Wyman »

Ned wrote:
Wyman wrote:The only logically consistent moral behavior in my mind would be Mother Theresa or a monk - anything short of complete altruism is hypocritical and is usually self-serving 'feel good' behavior masquerading as altruism.
So we are back to either 100% or 0%?

That's not a very useful attitude to society (since no one can do 100%, not even a monk)!
Id say 'Local = 100%', 'Global = 0%.' So, in my work and personal life, I will bend over backwards to help people (of course, I'm flattering myself; but let's assume it for the sake of argument). For people on the other side of the world, not so much. Like I said - out of sight, out of mind. I don't see it as any more logical than your position, but like I said, logic is practically worthless in this area. Besides, if everyone helped locally, then when added up, it may come to more than the more watered-down 'save the planet, save the animals, save the political prisoners in China, etc., etc.'
Ned
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Location: Canada

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Ned »

Wyman wrote:
Ned wrote:
Wyman wrote:The only logically consistent moral behavior in my mind would be Mother Theresa or a monk - anything short of complete altruism is hypocritical and is usually self-serving 'feel good' behavior masquerading as altruism.
So we are back to either 100% or 0%?

That's not a very useful attitude to society (since no one can do 100%, not even a monk)!
Id say 'Local = 100%', 'Global = 0%.' So, in my work and personal life, I will bend over backwards to help people (of course, I'm flattering myself; but let's assume it for the sake of argument). For people on the other side of the world, not so much. Like I said - out of sight, out of mind. I don't see it as any more logical than your position, but like I said, logic is practically worthless in this area. Besides, if everyone helped locally, then when added up, it may come to more than the more watered-down 'save the planet, save the animals, save the political prisoners in China, etc., etc.'
As I said, my 'logical morality' is only guidelines, no one can follow it 100%.

However, there are times when many people are willing to put their families in jeopardy in order to defend their country, or even strangers when they witness an attack. It is not always black and white!

Helping locally is VERY important and not to be underestimated. I never donate money to charity, because I don't know whose pocket it ends up in. However, (a long time ago) I adopted 2 older children who badly needed a home because I knew I could help them.

Still, campaigning against the meat industry, every chance I have, is my way to spread awareness and point out alternatives. This way I serve the ultimate containing group: Life.
Melchior
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Melchior »

Ned wrote:
As I said, my 'logical morality' is only guidelines, no one can follow it 100%.

However, there are times when many people are willing to put their families in jeopardy in order to defend their country, or even strangers when they witness an attack. It is not always black and white!

Helping locally is VERY important and not to be underestimated. I never donate money to charity, because I don't know whose pocket it ends up in. However, (a long time ago) I adopted 2 older children who badly needed a home because I knew I could help them.

Still, campaigning against the meat industry, every chance I have, is my way to spread awareness and point out alternatives. This way I serve the ultimate containing group: Life.
I love this tired left-over-from-the-sixties rhetoric: 'Spread awareness'. Who the fuck do you think you are, to 'campaign against the meat industry'? Get out of here and shut the fuck up, you moron! Got any mustard to put on my Bahama Mamma?


http://a3.urbancdn.com/w/s/Sr/TBu5PFuWXqWXCI.jpg
Wyman
Posts: 973
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:21 pm

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Wyman »

Melchior wrote:
Ned wrote:
As I said, my 'logical morality' is only guidelines, no one can follow it 100%.

However, there are times when many people are willing to put their families in jeopardy in order to defend their country, or even strangers when they witness an attack. It is not always black and white!

Helping locally is VERY important and not to be underestimated. I never donate money to charity, because I don't know whose pocket it ends up in. However, (a long time ago) I adopted 2 older children who badly needed a home because I knew I could help them.

Still, campaigning against the meat industry, every chance I have, is my way to spread awareness and point out alternatives. This way I serve the ultimate containing group: Life.
I love this tired left-over-from-the-sixties rhetoric: 'Spread awareness'. Who the fuck do you think you are, to 'campaign against the meat industry'? Get out of here and shut the fuck up, you moron! Got any mustard to put on my Bahama Mamma?


http://a3.urbancdn.com/w/s/Sr/TBu5PFuWXqWXCI.jpg
Why do you feel the need to shut him up? Why not just disagree and move on?
Melchior
Posts: 839
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:20 pm

Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by Melchior »

Wyman wrote:
Melchior wrote:
Ned wrote:
As I said, my 'logical morality' is only guidelines, no one can follow it 100%.

However, there are times when many people are willing to put their families in jeopardy in order to defend their country, or even strangers when they witness an attack. It is not always black and white!

Helping locally is VERY important and not to be underestimated. I never donate money to charity, because I don't know whose pocket it ends up in. However, (a long time ago) I adopted 2 older children who badly needed a home because I knew I could help them.

Still, campaigning against the meat industry, every chance I have, is my way to spread awareness and point out alternatives. This way I serve the ultimate containing group: Life.
I love this tired left-over-from-the-sixties rhetoric: 'Spread awareness'. Who the fuck do you think you are, to 'campaign against the meat industry'? Get out of here and shut the fuck up, you moron! Got any mustard to put on my Bahama Mamma?


http://a3.urbancdn.com/w/s/Sr/TBu5PFuWXqWXCI.jpg
Why do you feel the need to shut him up? Why not just disagree and move on?

Because I don't want people to think I can be intimidated by this fuck-faced fool! Did I start a thread 'why I eat meat"?
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vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Why I became a vegetarian...

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Melchior wrote: Because I don't want people to think I can be intimidated by this fuck-faced fool! Did I start a thread 'why I eat meat"?
You are such a piece of shit. Perhaps you could go to New Guinea and donate yourself to a tribe of cannibalistic headhunters. At least you would serve some useful purpose then.
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