Qualia

[raw_thought]

Consciousness is a localized entity, separate but spectating the brain.

Localised where?

So you agree with me? I have repeatedly said that there is no localized (physical) visualized triangle.

[Arising_uk]

So you agree with me? I have repeatedly said that there is no localized (physical) visualized triangle.

No, as we disagree as to what 'physical' means with respect to imagined and perceived triangles. My point to GWT was about her implied assertion that consciousness is localised elsewhere that the CNS, I was asking where this local is?

[Arising_uk]

So those neurons are firing in a triangular shape?? ...

No, they are storing a pattern that when fired returns what we call an imagined triangle.

If what you say was true then the patterns that computational neural nets return do not exist within the physical neural-net but in some 'elsewhere'?

[SpheresOfBalance]

Qualia=subjective and private. Pain is subjective and private. My visualized triangle is subjective and private. Materialists do not believe in anything that is subjective and private(qualia). Therefore a materialist believes that there is nothing pain feels like and also that it is impossible to visualize a triangle.
If my ideas are programmed, makes no difference, my definitions are the agreed upon definitions of qualia and triangle.
The only way I can be wrong is if pain and my visualized triangle are not private. For example that there is an objective physical triangle in my brain when I visualize one. There is not,unless one takes the absurd position that in my brain there is the physical form of a triangle. That one could see a triangle in my brain. Also,if one had a sound amplifier one could hear my thoughts in English! That is also obviously absurd.

Raw thought you have far too dense a gray matter to understand, though I don't know why, (unless you're just being stubborn), that each of us is the very gradual culmination, in this moment, of everything we've ever seen, heard, smelled, felt or tasted. That it's all recorded in our, relatively, massive memory banks. What you see in your head today, is what was put in your head all those years ago. Ever smell a very familiar smell from your childhood, and are instantly reminded of that moment? Yes you are in that moment, reliving the exact experience you had all those years ago; Instant recall of experience. Every time you see the same thing over and over again, it reinforces that original programming, the original sensing. This is why when experiencing something new, we proceed with caution, that is until the programming is complete, (all aspects are fully understood), largely due to the association with other programs already stored in our memory. Such that anything new we come up with, are permutations of all the other memories (programming), and their associations.

It obviously seems to me, that the belief in qualia, is a result of a little bit of mysticism (god) thrown in with the understanding of the brain.

All I'm saying is that the idea of qualia has another name, that came long before the term qualia. So why do you want to merely change the name of something that already exists. Lets change piano to yo-yo and yo-yo to piano instead. That sounds like fun!

[SpheresOfBalance]

That is the definition of qualia. According to materialists there is nothing private about my visualized triangle or my feeling pain. If they were not private experiences they would not be qualia.

Private just implies that it's in "your" head and not someone else's. And in that moment that is absolutely true. Which is not to say that someone else can't do the exact same thing and recall a triangle such that in that moment it is indeed a private thing, in their head.

Please stop saying what Materialists believe without citing supporting evidence, like wikipedia or some other such reference resource. I think you're just pulling this stuff out of thin air.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Raw thought believes there are qualia because he's been programmed as to what a triangle is, and qualia for that matter. A triangle can be seen by an infant, yet it's not a triangle, yet! It becomes a triangle with programming. There's your qualia, it's simply programming. From the object, light is reflected, entering the eyes, light sensing devices, where it's converted to electricity, traveling up nerve fibers firing, to the brain where it's stored like a recording, until someone comes along and gives it a name, and like a dutiful monkey, you do as you saw. There is no triangleness in the universal, it is only a definition, a programming of constituents so a human can manipulate that which it's programmed to manipulate. If it doesn't know what constituents make up a triangle, how can it ding it on cue, it has to also know what a dig is and what a cue is. None of these things are anything other than programming. Our brains are just organic computers, garbage in, garbage out, case in point, of course.

Qualia= simply the programmed definition, despite us not knowing the full definition completely, of what something is.

In other words according to you pain does not feel like anything, there are only c-fibers firing. We understand that. That is what the debate is about. Simply stating your position is not an argument.

That's your understanding of my words, that you project largely because you are either being stubborn, or have the insatiable need to be correct. Pain feels like pain, It feels bad, it hurts, it is cause for alarm. It is the bodies way of letting one know that there is damage to the body, so the body can live. And the mechanism has to do with electron flow, along specialized cells called nerve fibers, yes. Are they localized? yes, in your body! Are they private? Sure, if you tell no one! Does qualia have anything to do with it? Sure, if you want to imagine something that is not real, to take the place of what's really happening.

[raw_thought]

Qualia=subjective feeling. For example, pain feels like something. So you are saying that when I claim that I feel pain I am making a mystical claim!!!
That is silly.
For a materialist pain does not feel like (qualia) anything. Look up "qualia".

[raw_thought]

Please read my posts. It will prevent you from posting nonsense. I have repeatedly said that neurons firing probably facilitates my visualized triangle.
If you had read my posts you would have known that that has nothing to do with my argument. You might as well have said that the earth goes around the sun.

[raw_thought]

Pain feels like pain, It feels bad, it hurts, it is cause for alarm. It is the bodies way of letting one know that there is damage to the body, so the body can live. And the mechanism has to do with electron flow, along specialized cells called nerve fibers, yes. Are they localized? yes, in your body! Are they private? Sure, if you tell no one! Does qualia have anything to do with it? Sure, if you want to imagine something that is not real, to take the place of what's really happening.

First you say that pain feels like pain. In other words there is a quale of pain. And then you imply that quales do not exist. Like I said, google "qualia" so that you will know what we are talking about.
You are writing nonsense. You are saying that qualia exists and then you say that they are not real.

[raw_thought]

That is the definition of qualia. According to materialists there is nothing private about my visualized triangle or my feeling pain. If they were not private experiences they would not be qualia.

Private just implies that it's in "your" head and not someone else's. And in that moment that is absolutely true. Which is not to say that someone else can't do the exact same thing and recall a triangle such that in that moment it is indeed a private thing, in their head.

Please stop saying what Materialists believe without citing supporting evidence, like wikipedia or some other such reference resource. I think you're just pulling this stuff out of thin air.

Nope! Private in the context of qualia means that I am the only one that experiences my pain. Also that I am the only one that sees my visualized triangle. There is no physical form of a triangle in my brain. Sure, believe that there is the physical form of a triangle in my brain or that it is impossible to visualize a triangle. But dont redefine words to fit your beliefs.

[raw_thought]

Look up "qualia". It is what something feels like. Materialists do not believe in qualia.

[raw_thought]

“Rather it is a feeling, simply an electro chemical response”
SpheresOfBalance
A feeling of pain does not equal ( is and only is) an electro chemical response. Perhaps, electro-chemical responses cause us to feel pain. However, that does not mean that they are the same thing. In other words if one says that pain is and only is c-fibers firing, then one is saying that pain is not painful. That is how absurd the materialist position is.
…………..
“"Qualia" is an unfamiliar term for something that could not be more familiar to each of us: the ways things seem to us. As is so often the case with philosophical jargon, it is easier to give examples than to give a definition of the term. Look at a glass of milk at sunset; the way it looks to you--the particular, personal, subjective visual quality of the glass of milk is the quale of your visual experience at the moment. The way the milk tastes to you then is another, gustatory quale, and how it sounds to you as you swallow is an auditory quale; These various "properties of conscious experience" are prime examples of qualia.’
FROM
http://cogprints.org/254/1/quinqual.htm
I did my seminar paper about “Quining Qualia” . I showed how it is not only an absurd position to take ( that feelings, qualia, do not exist) but also showed that Dennett’s argument contradicts itself.

[raw_thought]

That was Dennett's definition (and the correct one). He then (as a materialist ) tries to prove that they do not exist.
Look up the definitions of words before using them in a sentence.

[raw_thought]

Also it would help if you actually read my posts before posting your position over and over (that qualia do not exist). We all get it! You do not believe in qualia. However, because you are unfamiliar with the terminology you do not realize that you are saying that pain does not feel like anything.

[raw_thought]

Qualia= private subjective experiences.
Dennett's argument (in "quining qualia") is circular.
He proves that qualia are defined as private subjective experiences. He then states (without any argument) that private subjective experiences are impossible. Therefore, he concludes that qualia are impossible.
Basically, his "argument " is that subjective private experiences are impossible because subjective private experiences are impossible.
He contradicts himself because he relies on subjective terms to "prove" that subjective terms are meaningless. His "argument " is disingenuous because he redefines words.
1. Feelings are and only are brain states.
2. I (Dennett) believe in feelings because I believe in brain states.
That is similar to me (an agnostic ) saying that the definition of "God" is "my dog". I then say that I believe in God because I believe that my dog exists.