Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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thedoc
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by thedoc »

Greatest I am wrote:
thedoc wrote:
Greatest I am wrote: Most Christian cults and mainstream religions are homophobic and misogynous.
Regards
DL
Well I can definitely say that my congregation, (the one I am a member of) is not misogynous, but the homophobia is quietly ignored as there are some who are and some who are not and no-one says much for fear of offending someone. And partly because nobody is realy sure who is supportive and who is not, though many are probably ambivalent about it.
Ambivalence to an anti-love issue does not show the love that Christians say they are all in for.

For evil to grow all good Christians need do is be ambivalent to evil.

Regards
DL

I believe that most people in this congregation are still struggling with the question, and have not resolved the issue of homosexuality in their own minds, and until they make a firm decision, they keep it to themselves. The subject does occasionally come up in conversation, but nothing has yet been resolved. I have been told that we had a supply pastor who was accompanied by his gentleman friend, but the relationship was not questioned and there was no explanation offered. They could have just been friends, we don't know. But there was no objection from the members of the congregation, that I know of.

One thought, the Christians of this congregation do not claim to be perfect Christians that do everything to Christ's teachings. We just do the best we can, given our imperfection and weakness.
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Greatest I am
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am »

thedoc wrote:[

Ambivalence to an anti-love issue does not show the love that Christians say they are all in for.

For evil to grow all good Christians need do is be ambivalent to evil.

Regards
DL

I believe that most people in this congregation are still struggling with the question, and have not resolved the issue of homosexuality in their own minds, and until they make a firm decision, they keep it to themselves. The subject does occasionally come up in conversation, but nothing has yet been resolved. I have been told that we had a supply pastor who was accompanied by his gentleman friend, but the relationship was not questioned and there was no explanation offered. They could have just been friends, we don't know. But there was no objection from the members of the congregation, that I know of.

One thought, the Christians of this congregation do not claim to be perfect Christians that do everything to Christ's teachings. We just do the best we can, given our imperfection and weakness.[/quote]

It is all about what is known for sure.

"I believe that most people in this congregation are still struggling".

Then I would fire the priest because he is anti-love.
This aside.

If I was there, I would show them the look this woman has for her Bishop and would also quote what her daughter said.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/11/08/ ... +Recent%29

I would also show them this.

http://christianity-revealed.com/cr/fil ... nrite.html

Regards
DL
thedoc
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by thedoc »

Greatest I am wrote: Then I would fire the priest because he is anti-love.

Regards
DL

Careful, your Catholic background is showing.

In our church we have a Pastor, not a priest, and why do you assume a man? We have a woman pastor, are you expressing your own misogynous tendencies?
thedoc
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by thedoc »

While I haven't asked our pastor directly, I would suspect that she would support the idea of homosexuals in the congregation. She has often pointed out that when Jesus was in his ministry, he would join with those who were outcasts of the society, and homosexuals are marginalized by many in our society.
David Handeye
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by David Handeye »

Greatest I am wrote:
David Handeye wrote:
Most of this is garbage and does not show what Gnostic Christianity is.

You say it simplifies things but the contrary is true and that mental exercise, we are a thinking person's religion, put';s us a cut above brain dead Christians who swallow a bunch of supernatural garbage as real.

As to your salvation comment.

The only thing we need saving from is the stupid notion that a God would condemn us for being exactly as created, and then instead of just forgiving us,, has his son needlessly murdered to save us.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. That immorality does not change even if Jesus would have volunteered, which he did not do.

Christianity is based on human sacrifice and the notion that it is somehow good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty.
That is why Christianity is an immoral creed.

Care to argue that it is good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty?

I did not think so.

Regards
DL
Just a few words, as to teach you, and so that everybody would know what Gnosticism really is.
Christianity, True Religion, is freedom. Christ, who called himself "Truth", is not afraid to assert that "The truth will set you free" and St. Paul "did not receive the spirit of slavery" (Rom 8:15). The Gnostic can not (and could not!) that feel alone. On the other hand you could believe in a Christian Gnosticism straight: that does not trust a man's wisdom, of a thought that elevates it above the "ilici", but that humbly obeys the Apostle proclaims to be no "more boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ "(Gal 6:14). Then the man is no longer far away from himself: as taught by the mystic, comes to himself, and therein lies not only in itself, but the whole Trinity: "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him and we will come to him and make our home with him "(Jn 14:23). How will he be able to feel alone, so? It seems to me from your previous answer that you missed completely the cornerstone not only of the nature of God, but also the reason of His creation and then the response that the creature has to give: love. Gnosticism is false, because Jesus never failed to be the "light that enlightens every man" (Jn 1,9). St. John wrote his Gospel in its key adversum gnostics and therefore uses the keyword "light" in the right sense. All proceeds from the contempt of "gross matter", another element Gnostic: the task is not to eliminate "the ballast which prevents us from seeing", but subdue the ballast to the spirit of obedience and love, as the thought is not free, but "the spirit is willing." The same pure Word has not diminished taking this matter. Tying His pure grace to elements such as water, salt, bread, wine ... He who has created everything from nothing would not heal the blind man with a solemn gesture, but "he spat on the ground and made mud with the saliva" (Jn 9.6): nothing more coarse. But nothing is coarse of what God has done, so much so that "your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you" (1 Cor 6:19). It matters little to be good or bad, healthy or sick: in this body we glorify God, as Christ did on the cross. If you want to discover the way of truth, read "The Interior Castle" of St. Teresa of Avila, who converted the Gnostic Edith Stein. Sant'Antonio Abate asked God what he lacked to be perfect, and God showed him a cobbler of Alexandria because he learned one thing that was missing; went there, questioned him, but all his spiritual and ascetic practices he had already performed in the highest degree. Inspired him to say more, and this: "See - he said - after work I sit in front of the shop, watch the world go by and I say, 'All these people are better than you.'" This is the only Christian gnosis.
"We venerate the Serpent because God has placed the origin of Gnosis for humanity: he taught to man and woman the complete knowledge of the high mysteries," according to the mysteries Ophites. But the same Freemasonry has in it the cult Ophite and as such the '"ouroboros" as a symbol of their metaphysical naturalist. The "sacred" they are talking about has nothing transcendent and for this are perfectly Gnostics: Gnosticism is actually Satanism. On the contrary, "Truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he can not see the kingdom of God" (Jn 3,3). That's why being a Christian is not a label, but ontological transformation. But "The natural man, however, not the things of the Spirit of God" (1 Cor 2:14). "Even Moses was asked to raise a bronze snake on a stick." Symbol of the curse that Christ took upon Himself (Gal 3:13) in our place; but Christ rises leaving the snake defeated on the cross (1 Cor 15.54 to 55). Man defeats death and transience introduced by PO joining mystically to Christ.
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up" (Jn 3:14); is a apophaticism: say what Christ is expressing what is not. Why just the snake? Because "death entered the world through the envy of the devil" (Wis. 2:24): to redeem the Word was to assume a body liable, give it at the mercy of death and kill her with it and then rise again. The snake is death, that Christ leaves on the pole rising. St. Paul says it exclaiming: "Where, O death, is your victory?" (1 Cor 15:55). The snake is therefore the devil, destined to eternal death, the "whoever believes in him" of John 3:15 refers to Christ, not to the serpent. See St. Augustine, In Io., Om 12,11.
Now I will teach you, there is no Christian Gnosticism, because true Christianity and Gnosticism are mutually exclusive. In fact, the principles on which Gnosticism is based contradict the meaning of Christianity. Although there are Gnostics who declare themselves Christians, in fact they are not. Gnosticism has been one the most dangerous heresy, under the influence of philosophers such as Plato, Gnosticism is based on two false premises. First of all, consider a dualism between body and spirit: it affirms that the body is evil and spirit is good. Given this belief, the Gnostics are convinced that any action done with the body, even the worst, has no weight, because the real life concerns only the spirit; secondly, gnostics claim to have superior knowledge, a higher truth, known only to a few. Gnosticism is derived from the Greek word gnosis meaning "to know". Their higher truth does not come from the Bible, but from some mystical revelation top. The Gnostics believe they are a privileged class because they have a deeper knowledge of God and elevated. While on the question of Salvation, Gnosticism teaches that Salvation is gained through knowledge of the divine free from the darkness of false illusions. Although gnostics claim to follow Jesus and his teachings, they just contradict it. In fact, Jesus never spoke of salvation through knowledge, but only through faith in Him as Savior from sin. Ephesians 2: 8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. It is not by works, so that no one can boast. "Perilous salvation offered by Christ is for all and not just for a select few who have had a special revelation (John 3:16).
Christianity asserts that there is a single source of truth, that the Bible is inspired, (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3: 15-17; Hebrews 4:12). And 'the written revelation sent by God to mankind without any interference from the thoughts, ideas and visions human. On the other hand, the Gnostics use a series of texts that define how lost books belong to the Bible. Were the fathers of the church who did not recognize these texts as valid, rejecting them for their false doctrines about the Bible, about Christ, about God and Salvation. There are many contradictions between the Gnostic gospels and the Bible. Even when quoting verses from the Bible modify them, to paraphrase match them to their doctrine, a practice prohibited by the same scriptures. (Deuteronomy 4: 2; 12:32; Proverbs 30: 6; Revelation 22: 18-19). Another reason for the sharp contrast is the person of Jesus Christ. The Gnostics believe that Jesus was not a physical being, but his physicality was only apparent and that his spirit came upon him at the time of his baptism. This view destroys the true humanity of Jesus and ignores the incredibility of Jesus fully man and God at the same time, leaving the real physical suffering of Jesus on the cross. (Hebrews 2: 14-17) The Biblical view affirms his full humanity and divinity.
Eventually, Gnosticism is based on a mystical approach, intuitive, subjective and emotional truth, believing that it is based on something very ancient that date back to the Garden of Eden, when satan intervened to sin Adam and Eve.
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Greatest I am
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am »

thedoc wrote:
Greatest I am wrote: Then I would fire the priest because he is anti-love.

Regards
DL

Careful, your Catholic background is showing.

In our church we have a Pastor, not a priest, and why do you assume a man? We have a woman pastor, are you expressing your own misogynous tendencies?
No.

Women tend to have more heart than men and a woman would have likely taught that love was more important than what people's gender was of those you love.

If she did not then she should be fired.

Further, yes, I was born R.C. but have not been in any church in a long time so my R.C. view might be partially to blame for thinking priest and male.

Regards
DL
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am »

thedoc wrote:While I haven't asked our pastor directly, I would suspect that she would support the idea of homosexuals in the congregation. She has often pointed out that when Jesus was in his ministry, he would join with those who were outcasts of the society, and homosexuals are marginalized by many in our society.
Yes they are and if she has not yet made it clear that they are not to be discriminated against, she has done a disservice to gays in your community.

Regards
DL
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am »

David Handeye wrote:[
Eventually, Gnosticism is based on a mystical approach, intuitive, subjective and emotional truth, believing that it is based on something very ancient that date back to the Garden of Eden, when satan intervened to sin Adam and Eve.
You do know, I hope, that the Jewish interpretation of their myth sees Eden as a place of man's elevation. Right?

Christianity reversed that intelligent view and for some reason think that becoming as Gods is somehow a fall.

Also, only fools will believe in a real or historic garden of Eden or read a book of myths literally.

Regards
DL
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by David Handeye »

The identification of the creator God of the Bible with the demiurge, so with a negative figure, also results in a reversal in the assessment of individual biblical characters, with the idealization of those who have broken the laws of the Creator, like Cain. Eden becomes a kind of enchanted garden in which the biblical God held Adam and Eve in ignorance. Nell'Apocrifo of John the same Christ the Saviour encourages parents to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, with an interpretation that introduces a clear break between the Creator God of the Old Testament and the Saviour who proclaims 'emancipation from the Law.
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am »

David Handeye wrote:The identification of the creator God of the Bible with the demiurge, so with a negative figure, also results in a reversal in the assessment of individual biblical characters, with the idealization of those who have broken the laws of the Creator, like Cain. Eden becomes a kind of enchanted garden in which the biblical God held Adam and Eve in ignorance. Nell'Apocrifo of John the same Christ the Saviour encourages parents to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, with an interpretation that introduces a clear break between the Creator God of the Old Testament and the Saviour who proclaims 'emancipation from the Law.
A good move from my Gnostic Christian POV.

All governments and religions are a curse to our freedom and we should hate them all.

The fact that they exist says that mankind is too stupid to be able to live in peace without following some written or spoken code of ethics.

One of the archetypal Jesus' said that the Sabbath was created for man and not man for the Sabbath.

The same can be said of governments and religions. We created them to serve man and not man serve them. We are to control these tools of social manipulation and control and not have them control us.

That is in keeping with the Jewish view that a Rabbi can overrule the written laws of God in their holy books.

Man is to be supreme and not some dead words in a book. The law should be written in all of our hearts and we should know how to behave without having to read it in a book.

Regards
DL
thedoc
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by thedoc »

ReliStuPhD, I've read the article, 13 pages, and I think that trying to condense it my self would be unfair so I will post quotes and you can ask questions as you see fit.

From "God and satan in Job" by Brooks Schramm.

"In the first 3 sections of the paper I have tried to make 3 points. first that the author of the book of Job is at least raising the possibility that all is not well with the deity, and he does so by portraying a God whose character is profoundly ambivalent. 2nd that the figure of "satan"* passes through 4 identifiable stages in the OT and that "the satan" of the prologue to Job belongs to the 3rd stage. 3rd that when one inquires after the actual function of "the satan" in Job one finds that he serves as the personification of the spirit of doubt within the deity itself."

*(pronounced "say-TAN)

"David Wolfers has described Job (the person) as "the prophet in reverse relentlessly pursuing God with the call to duty and justice." The prophet in reverse. By this little phrase Wolfers penetrates to the essence of the book of Job and helps us to see why the book is so unsettling. the classical prophets were messengers from God who announced to God's people God's unequivocal demand that they are to do justice. But in Job the tables have been turned. Job is the messenger from suffering humanity who announces to God that God must do justice too. The author of Job has the unmitigated gall to assert that Job is just and God is unjust."

It is also noted that satan appeared only in the prologue and was not seen at all in the rest of the book, and certainly not in the end of the book when God and satan would have been expected to settle the bet. This lends further to the argument that satan was just an alternate personification of God himself and not a separate entity. God was talking to himself, and therefore it was God who inflicted all the suffering onto Job, even though, in God's eyes, Job's children deserved what they got.
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by ReliStuPhD »

That's interesting. I'd not heard that before (not that that means much ;) ). I did some Gooling in an attempt to find the actual article, but it didn't come up. I did, however, find this article: http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/ ... 5_Page.pdf

At the 451-452 page turn is a paragraph that references Schramm in the footnote. The paragraph itself is interesting:
Although both Yahweh and the Satan are represented as being responsible for Job’s tribulations, it is apparent that they do not stand in the same relation to them. To begin with, Yahweh is ultimately in control of what happens to Job, and the authority of the Satan is clearly derivative and secondary. Satan does not and cannot act independently of Yahweh. Presumably the author’s belief in a single supreme ruler of the universe led him to the conviction that, in the final analysis, everything must be traced back to Yahweh.
This is certainly interesting and certainly seems to put my theory that your pastor was talking about "'Satan = self' in a human context only" to bed.
thedoc
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by thedoc »

ReliStuPhD wrote:That's interesting. I'd not heard that before (not that that means much ;) ). I did some Gooling in an attempt to find the actual article, but it didn't come up. I did, however, find this article: http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/ ... 5_Page.pdf

At the 451-452 page turn is a paragraph that references Schramm in the footnote. The paragraph itself is interesting:
Although both Yahweh and the Satan are represented as being responsible for Job’s tribulations, it is apparent that they do not stand in the same relation to them. To begin with, Yahweh is ultimately in control of what happens to Job, and the authority of the Satan is clearly derivative and secondary. Satan does not and cannot act independently of Yahweh. Presumably the author’s belief in a single supreme ruler of the universe led him to the conviction that, in the final analysis, everything must be traced back to Yahweh.
This is certainly interesting and certainly seems to put my theory that your pastor was talking about "'Satan = self' in a human context only" to bed.
I found that article as well and it is next on my reading list. We can compare notes after I finish if you like.
Vestiphobic
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by Vestiphobic »

It's a good question, greatestIam.
But as usual, there is something grating here. I see God battling mutinous angels. What were they? How are the powers laid down in the matrix of Heaven? Couldn't God simply have obliterated Satan and all unfaithful birdies? He is supposed to be omnipotent after all. One flick of his will, and he can have eternal peace in both his kingdom and his earthly districts. But no, he shoved the rebellions outside. With the known results- the devils started to pester mankind, and mankind constantly has to fight the evil forces off (slightly exaggerated ).
But it could also be viewed in this way: spiritual politics. Suppose God let Satan continue his existence, on the condition that Satan obliges himself to run a penitentiary for human sinners. Because God didn't want Heaven to choke up with corrupted souls.
It really makes sense. But it also means that the devil never liberated himself from God, the soul warden is a prisoner as well. This theory however seems to confirm God's omnipotence (and an impressive IQ) But there are too many other signs in the bible that show he is not omnipotent.
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am »

Vestiphobic wrote:It's a good question, greatestIam.
But as usual, there is something grating here. I see God battling mutinous angels. What were they? How are the powers laid down in the matrix of Heaven? Couldn't God simply have obliterated Satan and all unfaithful birdies? He is supposed to be omnipotent after all. One flick of his will, and he can have eternal peace in both his kingdom and his earthly districts. But no, he shoved the rebellions outside. With the known results- the devils started to pester mankind, and mankind constantly has to fight the evil forces off (slightly exaggerated ).
But it could also be viewed in this way: spiritual politics. Suppose God let Satan continue his existence, on the condition that Satan obliges himself to run a penitentiary for human sinners. Because God didn't want Heaven to choke up with corrupted souls.
It really makes sense. But it also means that the devil never liberated himself from God, the soul warden is a prisoner as well. This theory however seems to confirm God's omnipotence (and an impressive IQ) But there are too many other signs in the bible that show he is not omnipotent.
That is for sure.

To your ideas though, I cannot buy them as you would have to explain why God gave Satan the power to deceive the whole world and why he put Satan right where Eve was to insure that she was tempted through that same deception power that flows from God.

So really, man cannot fight Satan off as she yields God's own power. A power none can resist. Not even God if you read Job where God says Satan moved him to destroy without cause. If Satan can make God sin then she can make anyone sin.

I say she because if you view the Vatican art, Satan is female.

Not surprising as Christianity is a misogynous religion.

Regards
DL
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