God, gods, or none of the above?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Greylorn Ell
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

Post by Greylorn Ell »

Greylorn Ell wrote: Let me briefly define the term Absolute Miracle as an event, state of being, or combination thereof that cannot possibly be explained, not even by a hypothetical omniscient God. Christ clearly knew the paranormal technology needed to perform actions seen by men as miraculous, but since he knew how to perform them, they were no more miraculous than an anthropologist visiting primitive tribes with a Zippo in hand-- or even better, an old handgun.

We are all required to accept the reality of at least one Absolute Miracle. It is that anything whatsoever exists.

Non-existence of anything seems the most natural state of being. If nothing existed, no one would be around to wonder why. The non-existent universe could stay non-existing forever without being troubled by non-existent philosophers wondering why it does not exist.

It is only the existence of something-- our own selves, the planet we live on, or the bird that shit in my face this morning when I went outside and gazed up at the sky-- that causes us to consider the universe. However they came to be, that universe and our own minds are the consequence of a deep-level miracle, an Absolute Miracle.

The need for an Absolute Miracle (A.M.) is implicitly recognized. Christians and other religions have their omnipotent God. Scientists have co-opted Christian beliefs, dropped the God-concept, and merely renamed them-- the Big Bang, and biological abiogenesis. Every version of the Absolute Miracle has this in common:

One single thing or entity that contained all the laws and physics principles necessary to create our universe always existed, without cause, and about 13.5 billion years ago it got to work. No one knows why. What might have prompted a God who existed forever to suddenly create a universe? What might have triggered cosmology's micro-pea/singularity to explode? Such questions cannot be answered without introducing an outside force-- a second Absolute Miracle.

So, let's assume that for the universe to fire up, two miracles are required.

This presents another question. There is a mathematical theorem that I know of but cannot replicate, which declares that if the state of something within a given space can move, there must be a space at least one dimension higher into which it can move.

Simple analogy: A theoretically two-dimensional sheet of paper lying flat atop a 2-D table-top. Imagine picking up one end of the paper and curling it upward, off the desktop surface. This requires a third space, a 3-D space into which the paper can curl.

By non-rigorous analogy, if our two hypothetical 3-D spaces are to interact and change, they must exist within a 4-D space containing them. This concept is not important to our current level of discussion and is presented so that any drunk mathematicians who found this stuff late at night, by mistake, will not immediately write these ideas off after their morning coffee.

So why not start at a different place? Three Absolute Miracles:
  1. A space containing raw, unformed and unstructured energy. It is defined by the Three original Laws of Thermodynamics-- straight-up classical physics. This is an open, unstructured space. I'll borrow a term from recent astrophysical research and call it "Dark-energy" space."

    D.E. space manifests a single force, defined in physics as the "Second Law of Thermodynamics." This is a settling, stabilizing force. It's job is to maintain D.E. space in its original unstructured form and to keep it at the lowest possible temperature, Absolute Zero, as defined by the Third Law of Thermodynamics.
  2. A highly structured, tightly-wound space with a potential for intelligence that cannot be realized within the space itself. It's job is to keep itself tightly wound.

    Imagine an old wind-up clock whose owner has been told that the clock will tick down to the time of his death, and no tick can be undone. Fearful of death, he keeps the clock with him at all times, his fingers grasping its winding-handle, holding it tightly, preventing the spring from unwinding and the clock from ticking. When asleep he puts the spring-winding handle in a vise.
  3. Suppose that the force internal to dark energy is the perfect counter-force to that which holds Aeon space together.

    Finally consider the possibility that dark energy and Aeon space exist within a super-space, and collide.
This event would not compare to the hypothetical Big Bang and would not instantly create all the matter in the universe. It would not create any matter at all, not a quark, not a neutrino, not a single structured particle of the sort that atomic physicists describe.

It would, however, break up Aeon from its tightly bound form into myriad tiny components, beons, no longer integrated into Aeon, but perhaps striving to return to that bound state as natural forces do their work. This will be forestalled by dark energy, as much a counterforce to beon as beon is to it.

The collision between Dark Energy and Aeon space changes a quiescent universe into a potentially active, busy place in which non-conscious beons interact unconsciously with some dark energy. The change comes when at least two beons develop rudimentary forms of consciousness. They become the entity that we now conceive of as "God."

Greylorn
This is a follow-on to my post of Sat 04 6:38a, partially repeated above (with edits) for easy reference.

I assume that at least two beons are necessary to develop consciousness, because humans do not develop consciousness without the assistance of others. I prefer the notion that three beons were involved, perhaps because of my religious history, but I've noticed the number "three" coming up throughout these considerations and beyond, beginning with the structural stability of triangles and extending into the structure of life at the microbiological level (e.g. codons).

A method of communication between them would have been necessary. I propose that dark energy provided the medium for exchange, and mathematics their common language, beginning at 1+1=2. It is the only language that exists independently of any mind's invention. Meanings expressed in mathematics cannot be redefined to suit the outcome of a conversation.

My term for the first consortium of intelligent and self-aware beons is, of course, Geon.

At some point during or after their development of consciousness, Geon might notice the existence of other beons, but quiescent and non-conscious. Would they not endeavor to change that state, to awaken those beons? If the quiescent beons have a strong consciousness potential, this might be easily accomplished by the equivalent of a high-level hello.

(These notions are similar to religious lore about the creation of the angels. Except in this version they were awakened or brought to consciousness, rather than created.)

Next I envision a hierarchical procedure for introducing unconscious beons to intelligence and self-awareness similar to those used in human societies. Geon has done their work for the time being, and after becoming bored with the same job, angels or whatever the next hierarchy might best be named, will pass it down the line. As lower levels of beons are reached, everyone will become bored with the job of waking them up.

Who might represent these lower levels of beon? Take a guess, and if you need assistance I'll rent out my mirror.

Suppose for the sake of discussion that Geon desires to bring all beons to intelligent consciousness, and that neither they nor anyone else wants to put in the repetitive work involved. What do humans do when faced with accomplishing repetitive tasks? We build factories and fill them with machines to do the job.

Hence a short introduction to the purpose behind creation: The human body/brain is a mechanism engineered to connect with one beon and feed it enough sensory information to awaken it, with the ideal result that upon the body's demise, beon will be able to maintain consciousness without further biological and environmental support.

Yep, there's more.
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Greylorn Ell
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

Post by Greylorn Ell »

Immanuel Can wrote:I think we might be well-advised to retire, rethink and relaunch our experiment, Greylorn. I think too much of a distracting nature is already clogging the start of this discussion -- partly because we failed to anticipate that in listing three possibilities instead of two we were perhaps not being inclusive so much as being unintentionally misleading. What was intended (I think) as a willingness to entertain all conceivable results on our part was taken as some sort of welcome to the old Atheist-Theist debators, and then as disappointing exclusion when that did not turn out to be our intent.

Some experiments fail: that's life. I'll take the blame: I should have caught the potential for confusion before we launched. You did ask me.

From my perspective, if the moderator will kill the thread, I think then that works as a solution. But, of course, if you feel you wish to pursue the start we've made I have no objections. I only submit that I'm not certain how to find a place in the sort of exchange that has evolved out of that start. Nevertheless, I shall be happy to chip in if such a place ever appears, and of course, I'm not inclined to create pointless controversy if it does not.
I.C.

Perhaps Sunday will bring another, smaller resurrection. Or not. Kindly evaluate my Sat 04 6:38 post and the follow-up preceding this reply, at your leisure.

Thanks,
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Immanuel Can
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Greylorn:

I'll have to pick and choose a bit, so that I don't end up sending you a message that quotes everything you said, plus seeks to respond to that in a comprehensive way -- for to do that would create a huge message, far bigger than anyone on this space would probably wish to track. The other danger of long messages is, of course, that one finds oneself skipping over huge sections in order to engage points one finds particularly important -- often to the chagrin of the poster, who then assumes you're disregarding some element he considers essential, and feels unfairly treated by the answer.

I have discovered that short back-and-forths minimize these sorts of difficulties. So I shall respond selectively below: not -- and I repeat, not -- to minimize other points, but to achieve greater parsimony and minimize misunderstanding. The rest we can deal with as it recurs, I believe.

Let me briefly define the term Absolute Miracle as an event, state of being, or combination thereof that cannot possibly be explained, not even by a hypothetical omniscient God...We are all required to accept the reality of at least one Absolute Miracle. It is that anything whatsoever exists.
I agree that the existence of order in a universe supposed to be the product of chaotic forces like chance and time would be a contradiction of known scientific laws. So I also agree that something in the order of a "miracle" -- or, to defer to scientific terms, a massive, implausible and unexpected infusion of orderliness -- would have to have taken place at some particular time in the past. So far so good.

But your definition of "Absolute Miracle" seems implausible to me. And your description of it contains a manifest contradiction: for if an "omniscient" God could "not explain" such an event, then surely that "hypothetical God" would no longer merit the epithet "omniscient" -- for there would be at least one thing He did not know, and hence the "omni-" would be reduced to a mere figure of speech, a hyperbole of some kind, and not a real attribute of God.

So I think your premise could only be granted on the supposition that such a God as an "omniscient" one did not exist, surely. And if so, then I would have to contest the idea of the existence of any Absolute Miracle of the kind you describe, even at the moment of Creation; for I do not believe in a created God, any more than I believe in square circles and married bachelors.

Thoughts?

Greylorn Ell
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

Post by Greylorn Ell »

Immanuel Can wrote:Greylorn:

I'll have to pick and choose a bit, so that I don't end up sending you a message that quotes everything you said, plus seeks to respond to that in a comprehensive way -- for to do that would create a huge message, far bigger than anyone on this space would probably wish to track. The other danger of long messages is, of course, that one finds oneself skipping over huge sections in order to engage points one finds particularly important -- often to the chagrin of the poster, who then assumes you're disregarding some element he considers essential, and feels unfairly treated by the answer.

I have discovered that short back-and-forths minimize these sorts of difficulties. So I shall respond selectively below: not -- and I repeat, not -- to minimize other points, but to achieve greater parsimony and minimize misunderstanding. The rest we can deal with as it recurs, I believe.

Let me briefly define the term Absolute Miracle as an event, state of being, or combination thereof that cannot possibly be explained, not even by a hypothetical omniscient God...We are all required to accept the reality of at least one Absolute Miracle. It is that anything whatsoever exists.
I agree that the existence of order in a universe supposed to be the product of chaotic forces like chance and time would be a contradiction of known scientific laws. So I also agree that something in the order of a "miracle" -- or, to defer to scientific terms, a massive, implausible and unexpected infusion of orderliness -- would have to have taken place at some particular time in the past. So far so good.

But your definition of "Absolute Miracle" seems implausible to me. And your description of it contains a manifest contradiction: for if an "omniscient" God could "not explain" such an event, then surely that "hypothetical God" would no longer merit the epithet "omniscient" -- for there would be at least one thing He did not know, and hence the "omni-" would be reduced to a mere figure of speech, a hyperbole of some kind, and not a real attribute of God.

So I think your premise could only be granted on the supposition that such a God as an "omniscient" one did not exist, surely. And if so, then I would have to contest the idea of the existence of any Absolute Miracle of the kind you describe, even at the moment of Creation; for I do not believe in a created God, any more than I believe in square circles and married bachelors.

Thoughts?

Immanuel Can,

I put a whole lot of ideas out there in a few posts mainly to get it over and done with. Your strategy of working one point at a time is fine with me.

Clearly, if there is such a thing as an Absolute Miracle, it would be linguistically unruly to call God omniscient. However, given that Christianity declares its belief in a trinity of Gods to be monotheistic, a linguistically abusive statement, I am certain that if theologians put their mind to it, they could find a way to declare a God who does not know why he exists to be omniscient nonetheless.

However, I prefer the honest use of language, even in theology. Especially in theology. You caught me being a tad sloppy here, but how else to make the point?

The object of my theorizing is to reconcile a logical and sensible creator-concept with hard science in a believable manner. It is not to reconcile traditional religious beliefs with science, because I do not believe it is possible to do so. I was a devout Catholic at the age of 18 when I first conceived of Beon Theory's core elements, and I spent four years thereafter trying to fit those ideas into my Church's dogmas. This proved impossible, and the Church was, of course, having none of it.

I have other problems with the omniscience notion. The obvious one is that the Old Testament God does not behave like a being who knew the outcome of his choices, but more like a minor god experimenting with human behavior.

Next there is the issue of free-will. If there exists a God who truly knows everything, then he knows not only when and where every one of the trillions of termites on earth will fart, but also how often and where they farted in the past, plus where and when each of those bugs will fart in the future. He will know the chemical composition of each emission, and must also know the complete history of every carbon atom in the emitted methane-- beginning with when and where and in what star it was manufactured, through its travels to planet earth, and any biological organisms that might have incorporated it into their bodies as they lived and died. That's a lot of knowledge. It is inconceivable to me that, given such an unlimited God, any termite will ever have a choice about leaving a fart.

But what about you and me? We cannot choose not to emit them, but we can exercise some management control. Like, slowly and quietly in church, glancing to one side or another a few moments later. Maybe not at all while in the dentist's chair, or on first dates. But do we have control because we think we have? If I try not to embarrass myself at a formal dinner, does not the omnipotent God know if I would make it to the sandbox in time, or not? Here are the thoughts of others for your consideration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestina ... mniscience

Finally, my ultimate complaint is that an omniscient God cannot have a genuinely creative thought. Knowing all things must logically include all ideas. Thus an omniscient God cannot fairly be labeled a "creator!" At best he is a machine regurgitating thoughts he's always had, doing things he already knew he would do, regretting decisions he knew he would make and regret. This seems to me more like the behavior of a machine than a thriving God.

Given that God can either think creatively (i.e. imagine things he'd not previously conceived of) or know everything, a believer has his choice of Gods. Both cannot co-exist.
__________________________

For me there is no choice. Mere humans are capable of creative thought. If a God cannot do something that humans can do, he is not omnipotent.
___________________________

I recall from an earlier conversation that you were disinclined to buy into the mathematical concept of infinity, and if I'm right about that, good choice on your part. Infinities produce paradoxes. Omnis are expressions of infinities. Notice how the contradictions pile up? Like football players atop a fumble.
___________________________

My purpose in theorizing about creator-concepts is not to justify any conventional theology, or to challenge such theologies. It is to define a creator-concept that an agnostic might accept, and that a thoughtful atheist might consider, as a viewpoint he'd not previously evaluated.
___________________________

Along my less-than-popular path I've encountered many Christians like yourself who are seemingly unwilling to let go of the omniscient/omnipotent adjectives, and I often ask why that is the case? I believe that we live in a created universe because the evidence for this abounds. No other reason. Why should I care about the detailed properties of a creator or creators? How are these properties even any of my business?

You and I drive cars/trucks that were created by several levels of creators. At the top, capitalists who gathered the money for a factory. In the factory, mechanical engineers to design the working parts like engine, transmission, suspension and brakes. Sculptors to design a fashionable exterior and another bunch of people to assemble functional seats. Electrical engineers give a vehicle lights, a computer control system, and whatever electronic devices we want on the console. Finally the vehicle's assembly is accomplished by regular unimaginative workers and sent off to a salesroom.

Do you care about the properties of any of those creators of cars? I sure do not.

Do you care if the gal who designed the engine oiling system, a critical component, got straight-A's in ME school or scraped by with a C-average? Not so long as it works.

Do you care if the computer programmer who designed your car's control system is a fat guy who spends his nights in brothels after abandoning his wife and family, or must he be a devoted Christian? It is more likely that you care about whether or not the control system works properly.

Etc, etc. So what's the fuss about the properties or quantity of universe-creators? The universe seems to work. If created, the creator or creators (my obvious preference) are clearly a lot smarter than you or I. What business is it of ours exactly how smart they are, or anything else about them?
__________________

I continue to recommend that one who accepts Christian beliefs should continue to do so. If along his life's path he encounters Christians in the process of falling toward atheism and cannot convince them otherwise, he might consider passing them in the direction of Beon Theory. It is flexible, accommodating of variations, and scientifically verifiable.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Clearly, if there is such a thing as an Absolute Miracle, it would be linguistically unruly to call God omniscient.
This is the important point. And since we cannot rationally grant your premise, then the conclusion you draw based upon it -- that there is at least one such thing as an "absolute miracle" -- remains unsupported by it and thus needs some other kind of demonstration.
However, given that Christianity declares its belief in a trinity of Gods to be monotheistic, a linguistically abusive statement,

I think this is too strong a claim. The idea of the Trinity is not rationally incoherent, just rather paradoxical and hard to describe. However, analogies illustrating the possibility actually abound. I would not point to analogies of proof of the truth of the Trinity, but I would suggest they're good evidence the idea of three-in-one is not inherently contradictory...and thus not like "absolute miracle."

But more importantly than that, merely as a heuristic device, let us suppose the Christian idea of the Trinity were not demonstrable, not even coherent in some way. Let us further hypothesize that Christians were rationally confused about it. ---

Yet were all that true, it would not help your case one bit: for the fact that other people were confused in their beliefs would not give any rational observer a single reason to believe you were less confused. Perhaps we would simply both be confused and incoherent. You would need to show that while Christians might be confused in their explanations, you yourself were not. Their appeal to the absurd would not rescue yours; at least, not for a rational observer.
I was a devout Catholic at the age of 18 when I first conceived of Beon Theory's core elements, and I spent four years thereafter trying to fit those ideas into my Church's dogmas. This proved impossible, and the Church was, of course, having none of it.

Personally, I find this interesting. The organization of which you speak has nothing whatsoever to do with me, of course, but I do find it interesting that for so many people a personal road of search and disappointment is describable with regard to that organization. And I don't contest their stories, nor am I offended thereby. I'm sympathetic.
Next there is the issue of free-will.
A huge topic, to be sure; but actually not much of a problem for omniscience. For theologians, aware of the problem, have devoted a great deal of thought in the Philosophy of Religion to this question. And the answers they have found are quite compelling.

For example, they generally assert a difference between foreknowledge and determinism; the former being the statement "I know what will happen," and the latter, "I make what happens happen." In human affairs, we can very easily conceive of a person knowing an outcome and yet not making it happen, and there seems no reason to compel a different view in respect to God, potentially. You may know that if your child resists you and does not do her homework she will fail her course; but if your child fails, it will be her choice and action that makes it happen. There is not only no inconsistency there, it's not even a difficulty, really.


But all this is really a moot point. It wouldn't matter how faulty the traditional Theistic views might be: they wouldn't help positively rationalize yours.
you were disinclined to buy into the mathematical concept of infinity
Ah -- no, no: you've misunderstood me. I would not say that. Let me clarify.

As a mathematical concept, it is fine. The problem only occurs with what we call "actual infinities," meaning sequences of actual events extending infinitely into the past or future or both. We can conceptualize all sorts of things that aren't actual: and pi, the mathematical concept, would be one of them. There's nothing wrong with the concept pi -- but notice that though we work with the concept all the time in all sorts of operations, there has not been -- and analytically will never be -- a person who has "counted pi." It's in reality that such concepts cannot be sustained, not in maths.
Along my less-than-popular path I've encountered many Christians like yourself who are seemingly unwilling to let go of the omniscient/omnipotent adjectives, and I often ask why that is the case?
I cannot speak for others, but for myself I can answer. I find the terms useful -- omniscient being particularly coherent. "Omnipotent" is a term that needs nuancing if we retain it; for there are certain things that God simply does not do, by nature of His nature, and we would need to rule those out of any such concept. Therefore "omnipotent" could become misleading, if we take it to include things like "forgetting things," or "breaking His word": for we are told those are things that God simply does not do, for reasons that may be both as much rational and analytic as implicational.

Finding no significant problem with the terms, I'm happy to retain them -- at least for the present. And why would one simply "let go" of ideas that one finds are not only workable and rational, but properly descriptive of their Subject as well? So the answer isn't sinister at all: no one drops a concept unless they find a significant flaw in it. I'm certainly not keen to drop it for dropping it's sake; but give me an improved concept with which to replace it, and I will revise accordingly. So will anyone rational.

Etc, etc. So what's the fuss about the properties or quantity of universe-creators? The universe seems to work. If created, the creator or creators (my obvious preference) are clearly a lot smarter than you or I. What business is it of ours exactly how smart they are, or anything else about them?
Well, I think that the analogies here don't really work.

True, my auto mechanic or computer programmer may be of any character, and it will not affect the car. But my wife's character will have a huge effect on my marriage, and cannot possibly be a matter of indifference for me, can it?

After all, the difference is whether or not I am in a relationship with that person, or merely collecting a service from him or her. And I think you'll see then why your analogy regarding God seems insufficient.

I have left a couple of your critiques out of this message, which is already far too long. I did so because, as I say, disproving Theism won't prove Beon Theory. But if you regard them as urgent, please feel free to reassert them later, and I will be responsive on their particulars.

Thanks for the provocative thoughts, Greylorn.
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

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Greylorn Ell wrote:Next there is the issue of free-will. If there exists a God who truly knows everything, then he knows not only when and where every one of the trillions of termites on earth will fart, but also how often and where they farted in the past, plus where and when each of those bugs will fart in the future. He will know the chemical composition of each emission, and must also know the complete history of every carbon atom in the emitted methane-- beginning with when and where and in what star it was manufactured, through its travels to planet earth, and any biological organisms that might have incorporated it into their bodies as they lived and died. That's a lot of knowledge. It is inconceivable to me that, given such an unlimited God, any termite will ever have a choice about leaving a fart.
Why? I confess I've never been able to understand the leap from God's omniscience to determinism. Why must knowing what will happen mean it is determined? Knowing the outcome of a coin flip is not the same as determining it, no?
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Hello, ReliStuPhd:

I've always thought the thinking went something like this:

P1: God knows everything.
P2: God created everything.
C: Therefore, God causes everything.


It's terrible logic, I'll admit, neither valid nor necessarily true: the premises lack the essential middle term to connect them to the conclusion...but it seems to me it's something like what people have in their heads. Most people don't even notice the shift in tense from present in P1 to past in P2, so don't realize these actions are not essentially coextensive.

But you would need at least some other tacit premise to make the thing remotely cogent, something like "P1a": To know is to cause, or "P2a:" No one can create a rationally free agent." But there's no reason to accept either of those premises; they're highly implausible.

But I'm with you: I don't get their logic either.
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Immanuel Can wrote:Hello, ReliStuPhd:

I've always thought the thinking went something like this:

P1: God knows everything.
P2: God created everything.
C: Therefore, God causes everything.


It's terrible logic, I'll admit, neither valid nor necessarily true: the premises lack the essential middle term to connect them to the conclusion...but it seems to me it's something like what people have in their heads. Most people don't even notice the shift in tense from present in P1 to past in P2, so don't realize these actions are not essentially coextensive.

But you would need at least some other tacit premise to make the thing remotely cogent, something like "P1a": To know is to cause, or "P2a:" No one can create a rationally free agent." But there's no reason to accept either of those premises; they're highly implausible.

But I'm with you: I don't get their logic either.
But that's not how the Bible articulates it.


P1 God caused the Universe and everything in it to come into being.
P2 God knows everything.
C God can pay attention to anything; God can create any thing; Do anything.

I don't think the Bible makes a single logical claim anywhere. It just says it how it is (however illogical).

The "Omni" stuff comes later, in the Christian era.
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Hobbes:
But that's not how the Bible articulates it.
No indeed. But it seems fairly reflective of what proponents of the view themselves happen to be thinking. They blithely assume some easy connection there.
I don't think the Bible makes a single logical claim anywhere. It just says it how it is (however illogical).
You should read it then; you'd find it is quite otherwise. Whether one agrees with the arguments it advances or not is, of course, a different question from how it makes arguments. It advances many premises and anticipates specific conclusions from them. It does not, however, make those in the form of tidy syllogistic formulas, but rather mostly as enthymemes.

That's quite ordinary. You'll find that almost everyone everywhere argues in enthymemes, not neat syllogisms of the kind I laid out above. That is, they leave unstated at least one logically-necessary premise, taking it for granted rather than advancing it in words. But either way, the attempt everyone is making is to be logical, which is why logicians often seek to restore the missing premises, so as to see if logic or illogic results from the assumed statement-conclusion connection, just as I did above.

The "Omni" stuff comes later, in the Christian era.
Oh yes, of course. The three "Omni's" are just shorthand labels trying to describe a larger doctrine taught throughout the Bible. No one who knows the Bible thinks that "omniscient" is a Biblical term, though it identifies a concept the Bible supports. This is a further reason why "Omni-" talk sometimes has to be nuanced with explanations, since it is merely an assigned label, not the most accurate and expanded form of the doctrine in question.
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

Post by Greylorn Ell »

Immanuel Can wrote:
greylorn wrote:Clearly, if there is such a thing as an Absolute Miracle, it would be linguistically unruly to call God omniscient.
This is the important point. And since we cannot rationally grant your premise, then the conclusion you draw based upon it -- that there is at least one such thing as an "absolute miracle" -- remains unsupported by it and thus needs some other kind of demonstration.
I.C.

You are confusing my conclusion with my premise. My premise is that there must be at least one Absolute Miracle, as I've defined it. Given this premise and definition, the existence of a self-aware being who does not know the ultimate cause of his existence is a conclusion.

For example, suppose that the core premises of Beon Theory are correct and known to God. These premises require three spaces. Consider just one: dark-energy space. If the First Law of Thermodynamics holds, energy cannot be created or destroyed. What then can God know about its origin, since it had none? How might he explain energy's existence, or indestructibility?

Consider another. If Aeon space did exist and upon collision with dark energy become separated into smaller bits of itself, beons, God being the first of them to become self-aware, how would he explain the origin of Aeon?

Later in your argument you admit the vulnerability of the omnipotence concept to obvious logical considerations, to your credit. Why then insist upon omniscience as an attribute of God in the face of other logical failures?

Consider the priorities of your beliefs. Are they to believe in the real Creator and properly acknowledge his excellent work, or to believe in some invalid reasoning devised by the clever theologian, T. Aquinas and his followers?

Long ago while learning some physics and defending my beliefs I made the choice to accept the evidence in favor of creation, and then to consider by whom and to what purpose. The writings of philosophers and theologians are the words of mere men, typically with an agenda to defend and a job to maintain. I thought, why not look to the universe itself for insights into its originator and purpose? Unlike humans, nature does not need to obfuscate or bullshit.

This might appear to be the case with respect to quantum physics, but I am certain that this is the result of faulty mathematics. (Explained elsewhere.)


Immanuel Can wrote:
greylorn wrote:However, given that Christianity declares its belief in a trinity of Gods to be monotheistic, a linguistically abusive statement,

I think this is too strong a claim. The idea of the Trinity is not rationally incoherent, just rather paradoxical and hard to describe. However, analogies illustrating the possibility actually abound. I would not point to analogies of proof of the truth of the Trinity, but I would suggest they're good evidence the idea of three-in-one is not inherently contradictory...and thus not like "absolute miracle."

But more importantly than that, merely as a heuristic device, let us suppose the Christian idea of the Trinity were not demonstrable, not even coherent in some way. Let us further hypothesize that Christians were rationally confused about it. ---

Yet were all that true, it would not help your case one bit: for the fact that other people were confused in their beliefs would not give any rational observer a single reason to believe you were less confused. Perhaps we would simply both be confused and incoherent. You would need to show that while Christians might be confused in their explanations, you yourself were not. Their appeal to the absurd would not rescue yours; at least, not for a rational observer.

You might reconsider your perspective on this, in terms of mine. I keep trying to clarify my position, which is definitely not anti-Christian. I do not want to convert Christians to my ideas. The ideas are for those who've given up spiritual and religious beliefs in favor of atheism, or who are in the process of doing so. They may be useful for agnostics.

For example, I have no problem with a Trinity of Creators. Beon Theory logically requires at least two, and personally I prefer three. I name my conceptual trinity, Geon, but do not use linguistic obfuscation to describe it. Geon is not and never can be a monotheistic concept. Clearly, my objection is to the monotheistic label, not the concept of a Trinity.

Immanuel Can wrote:
greylorn wrote:Next there is the issue of free-will.
A huge topic, to be sure; but actually not much of a problem for omniscience. For theologians, aware of the problem, have devoted a great deal of thought in the Philosophy of Religion to this question. And the answers they have found are quite compelling.

For example, they generally assert a difference between foreknowledge and determinism; the former being the statement "I know what will happen," and the latter, "I make what happens happen." In human affairs, we can very easily conceive of a person knowing an outcome and yet not making it happen, and there seems no reason to compel a different view in respect to God, potentially. You may know that if your child resists you and does not do her homework she will fail her course; but if your child fails, it will be her choice and action that makes it happen. There is not only no inconsistency there, it's not even a difficulty, really.


But all this is really a moot point. It wouldn't matter how faulty the traditional Theistic views might be: they wouldn't help positively rationalize yours.


Omniscience by itself is not a problem for the notion of free will, but becomes one when combined with omnipotence. However, the real problem is in engineering. How is it possible to build a machine that runs programs controlling its behavior and declare that such a machine actually has free will?

I mention faults in current religious ideas because they were what I confronted during my Christian days from atheists, not as a way of justifying my own theories. I agree that one cannot prove oneself right by proving an opponent wrong. However, opportunities can be opened.

Once I attended a debate between Darwinists and Creationists. During the Q & A period my lone comment was to the effect that both sides have proven the other to be wrong. Why not accept that outcome and move on to a better explanation?
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

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My premise is that there must be at least one Absolute Miracle, as I've defined it.
The problem, Greylorn, is that then we need to ask, are we to take it that that premise is to remain unsupported? But if so, why should we assume it's true? And if the conclusion depends on our accepting that premise, then the conclusion is also put into peril by this lack of support.
Later in your argument you admit the vulnerability of the omnipotence concept to obvious logical considerations, to your credit.

I don't believe I did say this -- and if I said anything like it, then I certainly misspoke. "Omnipotence" is a concept in need of nuancing, but not of logical rejection. I think the concept is right, so long as it is not taken to include things that are rationally self-defeating, such as "making rocks to big He can't lift them," and things that are contrary to the character of God Himself as revealed in the Bible. For the Biblical God has specific characteristics, and as a Christian I would not be obliged to be defending a different concept of God, one possessing different characteristics from the Christian one. But understood in that light, the idea of "omnipotence" -- meaning the ability to do all that is rationally possible and all that is consistent with the Divine character -- is a perfectly sound and coherent one.
T. Aquinas
I'm not a Thomist, so I have no duty to his views.
Clearly, my objection is to the monotheistic label, not the concept of a Trinity.
Then we share a concern about that, Greylorn. It seems to me that monolithic monotheism would make both spirit and materiality necessary and eternal co-dependent properties.
Omniscience by itself is not a problem for the notion of free will, but becomes one when combined with omnipotence.
I don't see that this is true. In my last message, I think I showed why. (see the red syllogism: it's faulty in a number of ways. If you have a different syllogism, feel free to offer it in place of the one I've suggested.)
How is it possible to build a machine that runs programs controlling its behavior and declare that such a machine actually has free will?
Ah, now I see. The error is in the word "machine." You've mistaken an analogy for the whole truth there. That word, "machine" implies an impersonal mechanical entity consisting only of physical properties and responding only to natural laws. It contains no equivalent to soul, self or will, and so naturally, a machine is deterministic. But if, as I believe, it is merely reductional to refer to humans as "just machines," then the analogy is simply inadequate to describe the real human situation. Machines by definition have no free will; human beings do.

Why should it be surprising if someone creates another person who can have free will? Do you have any children? Well, despite being the creations solely of you and your missus, do they not have their own identities, wills and characteristics? Have they always lived precisely the way you wanted them to live? Are all their decisions your decisions too? If you can create another being that has a will that is not comprehensively describable in terms of yours and the missus' wills, why would you suppose a Supreme Being couldn't do what you clearly can?
Once I attended a debate between Darwinists and Creationists. During the Q & A period my lone comment was to the effect that both sides have proven the other to be wrong. Why not accept that outcome and move on to a better explanation?
Well, quite simply because I was not there, of course.

Now, understand that I like you and enjoy talking with you: but surely you'd stop short of insisting that I would be obliged to have come to the same conclusion, no? Perhaps I would have decided otherwise. Perhaps many others would -- on either side. And are we so sure that the debaters on that occasion actually offered all the best arguments possible? How would we know that in advance? Are you sure it really was a stalemate...or rather a mutual checkmate...of the sort you describe? Or did you only feel so at the time?

So lacking your experience of that particular debate, why would I be rational to "accept that outcome" and move on to what you characterize as a" better explanation," when my own understanding of the available arguments is not similarly stalemated? I'm not seeing the reasons to do that, and I doubt the Atheist side sees that one either. You'd need to give us reasons of our own, no?

Provocative thoughts. Thanks for them.
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

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Immanuel Can wrote:Hobbes:
But that's not how the Bible articulates it.
No indeed. But it seems fairly reflective of what proponents of the view themselves happen to be thinking. They blithely assume some easy connection there.
I don't think the Bible makes a single logical claim anywhere. It just says it how it is (however illogical).
You should read it then; you'd find it is quite otherwise.


Okay let's review a "logical argument" that you find in the Bible.
You start...
Chapter and verse please!

The "Omni" stuff comes later, in the Christian era.
Oh yes, of course. The three "Omni's" are just shorthand labels trying to describe a larger doctrine taught throughout the Bible. No one who knows the Bible thinks that "omniscient" is a Biblical term, though it identifies a concept the Bible supports. This is a further reason why "Omni-" talk sometimes has to be nuanced with explanations, since it is merely an assigned label, not the most accurate and expanded form of the doctrine in question.

Rubbish. The Bible teaches no such doctrine. There are far too many contradictions for god to be characterised by the 3omnis.
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Okay let's review a "logical argument" that you find in the Bible.
You start...
Chapter and verse please!
So easy! Okay, let's start with a very well-known hypothetical syllogism, expressed as an enthymeme, from a very famous sermon of Jesus. Matt. 10:29-31 can be syllogized as:

God cares for small things.
You are greater than these small things.
God will not care less for small things than for great things.
Therefore: God cares for you.


Whether or not you agree is not the point. The argument can be rendered in valid form, and appeals to reason. So it is a logical argument (assuming you know what philosophers mean by "logic.")
far too many contradictions

Yeah, I hear that a lot...and always from people who haven't bothered to read the Bible.
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

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Immanuel Can wrote:
Okay let's review a "logical argument" that you find in the Bible.
You start...
Chapter and verse please!
So easy! Okay, let's start with a very well-known hypothetical syllogism, expressed as an enthymeme, from a very famous sermon of Jesus. Matt. 10:29-31 can be syllogized as:

God cares for small things.
You are greater than these small things.
God will not care less for small things than for great things.
Therefore: God cares for you.


Whether or not you agree is not the point. The argument can be rendered in valid form, and appeals to reason. So it is a logical argument (assuming you know what philosophers mean by "logic.")
far too many contradictions

Yeah, I hear that a lot...and always from people who haven't bothered to read the Bible.
You are talking complete rubbish.
Quote the passage and then we can discuss this. But I'm not discussing your version of it. Do you take me for a fool?

10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

This is a massive non sequitur.
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Re: God, gods, or none of the above?

Post by Immanuel Can »

non-sequitur
My mistake. I was typing quickly, having to run out the door at the time, and did not double check. In line 3, I typed "less" instead of "more." It should obviously read "more" not "less."

Thus the non-sequitur disappears, and all is well.


P.S. -- You'll find the King James Version is often somewhat misleading to modern readers, as a result of its reliance on 17th Century syntax and usage. Try a modern version. Here's a better translation.

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
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