Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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David Handeye
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by David Handeye »

Greatest I am wrote:You introduced the word harmony and I just went with it.

Your answer indicates that you would accept a tyranny. Right?

If so, what is the difference between a tyranny and a master slave owner owning us all? If any.

Regards
DL
THIS IS NOT THE POINT OF YOUR POST.
sorry.

Secondly, you said, "If our leaders decided to deny anyone else leadership, would you say you would be in harmony with such a policy?", my answers is YES, if denying anyone else leadership would maintain harmony, that is peace, that is happyness, that is trust, that is individual rights, that is individual liberty, that is EQUAL RIGHTS, then YES, such a policy would be an harmonic one.
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DesolationRow
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by DesolationRow »

Greatest I am wrote:
Who has more hubris than God?

That's the point of departure I think. It's a choice. You must choose whether to believe that Satan's motives were properly reactionary to a tyrannical God, or to believe in God's fundamental goodness and worthiness of loyalty; the latter is faith.
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Greatest I am
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am »

David Handeye wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:You introduced the word harmony and I just went with it.

Your answer indicates that you would accept a tyranny. Right?

If so, what is the difference between a tyranny and a master slave owner owning us all? If any.

Regards
DL
THIS IS NOT THE POINT OF YOUR POST.
sorry.

Secondly, you said, "If our leaders decided to deny anyone else leadership, would you say you would be in harmony with such a policy?", my answers is YES, if denying anyone else leadership would maintain harmony, that is peace, that is happyness, that is trust, that is individual rights, that is individual liberty, that is EQUAL RIGHTS, then YES, such a policy would be an harmonic one.
Strange that God could not keep harmony in heaven, even when omnipotent and have the greatest powers of persuasion, that somehow did not work on Satan, yet you would give up all freedom here thinking it would stay harmonious.

Good thinking. Not.

Regards
DL
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Greatest I am
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am »

DesolationRow wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
Who has more hubris than God?

That's the point of departure I think. It's a choice. You must choose whether to believe that Satan's motives were properly reactionary to a tyrannical God, or to believe in God's fundamental goodness and worthiness of loyalty; the latter is faith.
Faith for sure. If such a person shows up, I would ask him or her to prove God's goodness via scripture.

1 Thesalonian 5;21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

I would ask that person to prove whether God is good or evil by asking a simple question on biblical stories, --- looked at from a moral perspective.

I would point to the story of King David's baby, that of the great flood and that of the killing of the innocent first born of Egypt.

I would ask them who is more likely to torture and kill innocent babies and children?

Satan or God?

I would then discuss their choice

Regards
DL
David Handeye
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by David Handeye »

Greatest I am wrote:I will be happy to retract if you have biblical evidence to show.

Regards
DL
Gnostic Christians, actually this is an oxymoron. Gnosys was a philosophycal tendency, a school of thought. Jesus gave mystical announcements, religious, not philosophycal. Gnostic gospels put in Jesus' mouth human's philosophies, as a matter of fact they are read by those who are interested in philosophy.
Now, about Paul, this one was not a gnostic, in fact he condemned and fought against gnosys of the "falsi frateli" (false brothers), he believes his duty to evangelize because this is the command of Christ to the Apostles: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel [= evangelize] to every creature" (Mark 16:15). Paul is the Apostle, "last of all ... the least of the apostles" (1 Cor 15.8 to 9) and is therefore obliged to evangelize. The world is the domain of demons whose ouster is a sign of evangelization says Christ himself: "And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons" (Mark 15:17); except to say that Jesus himself was Gnostic, also falls this objection. As for their "unknown God", just read the whole speech (Acts 17,22ss) and see that the Pagans the true God is "unknown" because no mystery as to the Gnostics, but because they live in '"ignorance" (v . 29) and Paul explains this ignorance to the Romans: "they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds are darkened" (Romans 1:21). I just mention the same Gnostics and contempt they have towards Paul. A gnostic does not admit the reality of original sin and its inheritance, rather well described by Paul in his Letter to the Romans. Gnosis, denying sin has no concept of Passion and Cross redemptive, Basilides, gnostic doc, vehemently denies that Christ was crucified: "Therefore if someone professes faith in the crucified, this is still a servant, under the power of those who have created the bodies; instead those who have denied, is free from the power of those and know the layout of the Father unbegotten ". Find me in fact any written Gnostic where you affirm the reality of the Passion of Jesus and His Cross.
Conversely Paul writes: "For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified" (1 Cor 2,1). It even gets to say, "But as for me there is no glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world" (Gal 6:14).
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Greatest I am
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am »

^

A bit off topic don't you think?

Did my last post throw you off too much?

I can link you to where I specifically speak of Gnostic Christianity if you want it.

Regards
DL
David Handeye
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by David Handeye »

I am off topic? Sorry, didn't you ask for biblical evidence?
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

DesolationRow wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
DesolationRow wrote:I thought we were specifically referencing the Fallen Angel mythos.
What's that?
The moral tale of Satan as a rebellious angel whose hubris severed his relationship with the creator God.
Where is that in Scripture?
bobevenson
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by bobevenson »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:Where is that in Scripture?
The only scripture worth discussing is from Revelation since the other 65 books of the Bible are merely wrapping paper.
Blaggard
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by Blaggard »

Jews and particularly perecuted, subjugated and exodus Jews tended to write in ways that would be understood by other Jews but not by those persecuting them.

In that light all Revelations actually says is:

The seven headed dragon will be rode by the beast, a spawn of the whore of Babylon. Rome was always considered another Babylon by the Jews, ie another source of enslavement. Jews originated in the north of what was then Babylon.

The seven Palatine hills of Rome (the source of all Roman government and the proconsul and Republics places of meeting), would be rode by the Emperor, a spawn of Babylon.

At the time it was written Nero had basically extradited all Jews from Israel.

Hence when it says the beast will be struck down and killed by his own sword but will rise again, it was referring to the actual event of Nero trying to kill himself with his own sword.

When it says We shall meet at Geddon for a final bloody battle, it is referring to the Roman fort of Geddon a stronghold that would need to be taken to resecure Israel. Armageddon is literally the valley where so many Jews fought in history ofr the Kingdom of Israel and is clearly a very reliable way of providing a message, aka the valley of tears incidentally.

When it says, let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the beast for it is a human number and that number is 666 (actually it wasn't it was 616) that refers precisely to Neros Kaballah, and his number.

When it says I saw the seven keys and the seven locks, it means I saw Rome it's even locked government places and I saw hence the keys to it.

When it says I saw a pale rider on a pale horse, it means prepare for war and prepare for the privations of war. Famine riding death?

All of it is simply a coded message that resistance fighters would get, but the Romans would be bemused by. As for it being anything but that and the rest of the Bible wrapping paper.

1) get a clue

2) stop claiming you are an authority on religion when you clearly know abso fucking lutely nothing about it

3) get over yourself.

why the Nicene councill included it given that basically everyone said it should not be is perhaps the only mystery. Perhaps they were as clueless as Bob is?

I could go on for example the rebuilding of the temple and resumption of animal sacrifice happened already, but it is a very clear way of saying something without actually saying, let's retake the temples too and resume our religious practices after we did when we escaped captivity in Babylon and or Egypt.

Every single passage and phrase basically is saying we shall retake our home, and we shall do it like this.

As it happened it never happened until about 1946 but as it happens even the Jews are pretty reluctant to say they had fulfilled any sort of prophecy in Zionism.

St John the Divine was maybe not the Saint people think, what he in fact was a very clever man, exiled to Patmos, speaking like most terrorists and resistance fighters do, to other cells.

"Are you the the Judean Peoples Front?"

"Fuck off"

"We're the Peoples Front of Judea"

A children's matinee:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrDVsprWRCQ
bobevenson
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by bobevenson »

You certainly talk a lot for somebody who doesn't know shit from Shinola.
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DesolationRow
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by DesolationRow »

Hobbes' Choice wrote: Where is that in Scripture?
Revelation 12:8–9
But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Luke 10:18
He replied, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Milton's Satan is depicted as an anti-hero, so the primary question becomes whether we choose to believe his defiant, heroic will is noble. Or to have faith in God's absolute goodness, suspending rationality.
David Handeye
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by David Handeye »

Greatest I am wrote:Strange that God could not keep harmony in heaven, even when omnipotent and have the greatest powers of persuasion, that somehow did not work on Satan, yet you would give up all freedom here thinking it would stay harmonious.

Good thinking. Not.

Regards
DL
In the Book of Job, lucifer turns to God to put Job (paradigm of the righteous man) to the test. Lucifer, like all the angels and humans, possesses intelligence and will, therefore, the ability to choose if stating as the end of their actions God (corresponding to God and thus allowing the establishment of a relationship of love) or not. In the case of lucifer that's the last infringement. Holding firmly that man is not able to fall outside his space-time contest, and that the analysis focuses on a time eternally present, (i.e.: the fall of lucifer and the man is not internal to the physical creation, and so a fact; but it is a spiritual state), "before" that lucifer rebelled there wasn't evil.
bobevenson
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by bobevenson »

DesolationRow wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote: Where is that in Scripture?
Revelation 12:8–9
But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
If you're going to quote the book of Revelation, please quote the only authoritative source, the KJV:
"And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
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Greatest I am
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Re: Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Post by Greatest I am »

DesolationRow wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote: Where is that in Scripture?
Revelation 12:8–9
But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Luke 10:18
He replied, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Milton's Satan is depicted as an anti-hero, so the primary question becomes whether we choose to believe his defiant, heroic will is noble. Or to have faith in God's absolute goodness, suspending rationality.
God is shown in scriptures to torture and kill babies quite often.

If one can justify that then God might be seen as good.

I cannot justify such actions and see that God as the evil demiurge that we Gnostic Christians have always seen.

Regards
DL
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