Mirror on the Moon

For all things philosophical.

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Ginkgo
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by Ginkgo »

Pluto wrote:
This is what 9/11 truthers say. That they have the scientific evidence. But the world no longer works that way. Reality is created and while your figuring out how it was done, we'll create more, and you can study that too.
The whole idea is that we avoid "truthers". So called "truthers" exist at either end of the spectrum. That's the point of my post.

[quote="Pluto'']

Reality-based community is an informal term in the United States, used to refer to people who base their opinions more on observation than on planning—that the people rely on their observation of reality instead of seeking to shape reality in the image of their plans. The term has been defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from judicious study of discernible reality." It can be seen as an example of political framing.
[/quote]
Ginkgo wrote:
Please step out of United States politics and have a look at the real world. It is the very essence of the wikipedia article that tells us why American politics so easily gives rise to a lunatic fringe. Surely you have been here long enough to recognize a Gnu when you see one. My apologies if you are an American living on the fringe.
Pluto wrote:
The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."
No, this is how the world works. One would have a disposition to advise this particular Aide to extract himself from his ethnocentric B.S. and take a look at the rest of the world.
Last edited by Ginkgo on Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:06 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Hardly strength. Is a zombie that constantly needs to feed on brains "strong"? A body that constantly requires food is not strong. A mind that craves simple pleasures like taste over moral logic is not strong. Cheaters cheat because they are too weak to play the game normally. Same with lying.

Says who? DNA is a code. Nanotechnology is already here. It's only a matter of time.
In a world of meat a vegetarian starves. People cheat those weaker than themselves, as only weak and stupid people can be cheated on and lied to effectively.

Nano, is the size of your brain.
Relative to the universe, yes. Relative to you, no. To me your brain is non-existent. Seems to me your sentiments are barbarian and have no place in civilised realms.
I bet you don't even know where the word barbarian comes from.

Omnivorousness is one of the most important qualities we have that has enabled us to master the planet. It is a key strength.
I am superior to a vegetarian, because, when I choose I can eat what she eats, but also have meat too.
What makes you think eating meat is barbarian?
Do you eat cheese and eggs? Are your shoes made of leather? What's the difference?
Let's take this one thing and examine your prejudices on it.
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Hobbes' Choice wrote:
GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Hobbes' Choice wrote:
Relative to the universe, yes. Relative to you, no. To me your brain is non-existent. Seems to me your sentiments are barbarian and have no place in civilised realms.
I bet you don't even know where the word barbarian comes from.

Omnivorousness is one of the most important qualities we have that has enabled us to master the planet. It is a key strength.
I am superior to a vegetarian, because, when I choose I can eat what she eats, but also have meat too.
What makes you think eating meat is barbarian?
Do you eat cheese and eggs? Are your shoes made of leather? What's the difference?
Let's take this one thing and examine your prejudices on it.
Don't eat cheese and eggs, shoes aren't leather. Omnivores don't choose what they eat, they have zero discipline over their cravings. I see them walk around to and fro about their meaningless lives, chasing money and cars, completely oblivious to anything. They are inferior in every sense of the word. Vegans are superior.

Your mindset is the mindset of "might makes right" the mindset of "rape and pillage" and the mindset of "i am strong because i lift big things." You've done such a good job of "mastering the planet" too, thanks for melting the polar caps by the way and toxic chemicals in roughly 75% of food items. The population has never been dumber, I'm sure it must be exciting for you sitting on your throne made of blood diamonds to look at the spectacle of filth you've created. Don't know why it would be exciting though, their lives are incredibly boring. It's time for new management, barbarian man is old news.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

GreatandWiseTrixie wrote:
Don't eat cheese and eggs, shoes aren't leather..
So you are from the Planet Vegan. No wonder you are such a twat.
You really need a good bit of meat inside you, like any normal human


Your kind would never have left the jungle. Without hunting apes could not have evolved.
The computer you are typing on and the chair you sit on has depended on the work of meat easters.
You are a paracite.

The rest of your post is irrelevant, misconceived and off beam.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Top 5 Reasons Why Vegan Diets Are a Terrible Idea

1. Vegans Are Deficient in Many Important Nutrients

Humans are omnivores. We function best eating both animals and plants.

There are some nutrients that can only be gotten from plants (like Vitamin C) and others that can only be gotten from animals.

Vitamin B12 is a water soluble vitamin that is involved in the function of every cell in the body.

It is particularly important in the formation of blood and the function of the brain.

Because B12 is critical for life and isn’t found in any amount in plants (except some types of algae), it is by far the most important nutrient that vegans must be concerned with.

In fact, B12 deficiency is very common in vegans, one study showing that a whopping 92% of vegans are deficient in this critical nutrient (1).

But B12 is just the tip of the iceberg… there are other lesser known nutrients that are only found in animal foods and are critical for optimal function of the body.

Here are a few examples:

Animal protein contains all the essential amino acids in the right ratios. It is important for muscle mass and bone health, to name a few. Vegans don’t get any animal protein, which can have negative effects on body composition (2, 3, 4, 5).
Creatine helps form an energy reservoir in cells. Studies show that vegetarians are deficient in creatine, which has harmful effects on muscle and brain function (6, 7, 8).
Carnosine is protective against various degenerative processes in the body and may protect against aging. It is found only in animal foods (9, 10, 11).
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) is the most active form of Omega-3 fatty acids in the body and primarily found in animal foods. The plant form of Omega-3s, ALA, is inefficiently converted to DHA in the body (12, 13, 14).
Two other nutrients that have been demonized by vegan proponents are saturated fat and cholesterol.

Cholesterol is a crucial molecule in the body and is part of every cell membrane. It is also used to make steroid hormones like testosterone. Studies show that saturated fat intake correlates with increased testosterone levels (15).

Not surprisingly, vegans and vegetarians have much lower testosterone levels than meat eaters (16, 17, 18, 19).

Bottom Line: Vegans are deficient in many important nutrients, including Vitamin B12 and Creatine. Studies show that vegans have much lower testosterone levels than their meat-eating counterparts.

2. There Are No Studies Showing That They’re Better Than Other Diets
Girl Disgusted by Vegetables

Despite what vegan proponents often claim, there are no controlled trials showing that these diets are any better than other diets.

They often claim that low-carb, high-fat diets (the opposite of vegan diets) are dangerous and that the evidence clearly shows vegan diets to be superior.

I disagree.

This has actually been studied in a high quality randomized controlled trial (the gold standard of science).

The A to Z study compared the Atkins (low-carb, high-fat) diet to the Ornish (low-fat, near-vegan) diet (20).

This study clearly shows that the Atkins diet causes greater improvements in pretty much all health markers, although not all of them were statistically significant:

The Atkins group lost more weight, 10.4 lbs, while the Ornish group lost only 5.6 lbs.
The Atkins group had greater decreases in blood pressure.
The Atkins group had greater increases in HDL (the “good”) cholesterol.
The Atkins group had greater decreases in Triglycerides. They went down by 29.3 mg/dL on Atkins, only 14.9 mg/dL on Ornish.
Then the Atkins dieters were about twice as likely to make it to the end of the study, indicating that the Atkins diet was easier to follow.

Put simply, the Atkins diet had several important advantages while the Ornish diet performed poorly for all health markers measured.

Now, there are some studies showing health benefits and lower mortality in vegetarians and vegans, such as the Seventh-Day Adventist Studies (21, 22).

The problem with these studies is that they are so-called observational studies. These types of studies can only demonstrate correlation, not causation.

The vegetarians are probably healthier because they are more health conscious overall, eat more vegetables, are less likely to smoke, more likely to exercise, etc. It has nothing to do with avoiding animal foods.

In another study of 10,000 individuals, where both the vegetarians and non-vegetarians were health conscious, there was no difference in mortality between groups (23).

One controlled trial showed that a vegan diet was more effective against diabetes than the official diet recommended by the American Diabetes Association (24).

However, a low-carb diet has also been studied for this purpose and led to much more powerful beneficial effects (25).

A vegan diet may be better than the typical low-fat diet recommended by the mainstream nutrition organizations, but pretty much any diet fits that description.

Bottom Line: Despite all the propaganda, there isn’t any evidence that vegan diets are any better than other diets. Most of the studies are observational in nature.

3. Proponents of Vegan Diets Use Lies and Fear Mongering to Promote Their Cause
Nuts

Some vegan proponents aren’t very honest when they try to convince others of the virtues of the vegan diet.

They actively use lies and fear mongering to scare people away from fat and animal foods.

Despite all the propaganda, there really isn’t any evidence that meat, eggs, or animal-derived nutrients like saturated fat and cholesterol cause harm.

People who promote vegan diets should be more honest and not use scare tactics and lies to make people feel guilty about eating animal foods, which are perfectly healthy (if unprocessed and naturally fed).

I’d also like to briefly mention The China Study… which is the holy bible of veganism and apparently “proves” that vegan diets are the way to go.

This was an observational study performed by a scientist who was madly in love with his theories. He cherry picked the data from the study to support his conclusions and ignored the data that didn’t fit.

The main findings of the China study have been thoroughly debunked.

I recommend you look at these two critiques:

Denise Minger: The China Study – Fact or Fallacy
Chris Masterjohn: What Dr. Campbell Won’t Tell You About The China Study
Also… a new study from China came out very recently, directly contradicting the findings of the China study.

According to this study, men eating red meat had a lower risk of cardiovascular disease and women eating red meat had a lower risk of cancer (26).

Bottom Line: Vegan proponents often use fear mongering and scare tactics in order to convince people not to eat animal foods. They frequently cite The China Study as evidence, which has been thoroughly debunked.

4. Vegan Diets May Work in The Short Term, For Other Reasons
Girl Who Does Not Like Vegetables

If you look at vegan message boards, you will quickly find stories of people who have seen amazing health benefits on a vegan diet.

I’ve got no reason to believe that these people are lying.

But it’s important to keep in mind that this is anecdotal evidence, which isn’t science.

You will find the same kinds of success stories for pretty much any diet.

Then you’ll also find tons of people saying they got terrible results on a vegan diet.

Personally, I think that vegan diets can have health benefits for a lot of people… at least in the short term, before the nutrient deficiencies kick in (which can be partly circumvented by supplementation).

However, I don’t think this has anything to do with avoiding animal foods!

Vegan diets don’t just recommend that people avoid animal foods. They also recommend that people avoid added sugars, refined carbohydrates, processed vegetable oils and trans fats.

Then they suggest that people stop smoking and start exercising. There are so many confounders here that can easily explain all the beneficial effects.

These are extremely unhealthy foods, that’s something the vegans and I agree on. I personally think that avoiding these foods is what is causing the apparent benefits.

I am 100% certain that a plant-based diet that includes at least a little bit of animals (the occasional whole egg or fatty fish, for example) will be much healthier in the long-term than a diet that eliminates animal foods completely.

Bottom Line: Vegan diets also recommend that people shun added sugar, refined carbohydrates, vegetable oils and trans fats. This is probably the reason for any health benefits, not the removal of unprocessed animal foods.

5. There is NO Health Reason to Completely Avoid Animal Foods
Meat

Humans have been eating meat for hundreds of thousands (or millions) of years.

We evolved this way.

Our bodies are perfectly capable of digesting, absorbing and making full use of the many beneficial nutrients found in animal foods.

It is true that processed meat causes harm and that it’s disgusting the way “conventionally raised” animals are treated these days.

However, animals that are fed natural diets (like grass-fed cows) and given access to the outdoors are completely different.

Even though processed meat causes harm, which is supported by many studies, the same does NOT apply to natural, unprocessed meat.

Unprocessed red meat, which has been demonized in the past, really doesn’t have any association with cardiovascular disease, diabetes or the risk of death (27, 28).

It has only a very weak link with an increased risk of cancer and this is probably caused by excessive cooking, not the meat itself (29, 30, 31).

Saturated fat has also never been proven to lead to heart disease. A study of almost 350 thousand individuals found literally no association between saturated fat consumption and cardiovascular disease (32, 33, 34).

Studies on eggs show no effect either. Multiple long-term studies have been conducted on egg consumption, which are very rich in cholesterol, and found no negative effects (35, 36).

The thing is that animal foods… meat, fish, eggs and dairy products for those who can tolerate them, are extremely nutritious.

They are loaded with high quality protein, healthy fats, vitamins, minerals and various lesser known nutrients that have important effects on health.

There may be ethical or religious reasons not to eat animals… I get it. But there is no scientifically valid health reason to completely eliminate animal foods.
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Wow, you seriously used the Atkins diet to support your claims?

Reputable vitamin B12 supplements or fortified foods (see reference) are needed by all vegans, and also by EVERYONE over the age of 50, no matter their diet. Vitamin B12 deficiency can cause nasty side effects such as anaemia, nerve damage, heart disease or pregnancy complications - so it's not worth taking any chances!

Vegan sources of vitamin B12

Look for plant milks, yoghurts, breakfast cereals, spreads, yeast extracts and nutritional yeast products that are fortified with vitamin B12. For example, taking 300 ml of a fortified plant milk plus 30 g of a fortified breakfast cereal is a good meal to supply vitamin B12 (1.5 micrograms). Or try fortified yeast extract with fortified spread on whole-wheat toast, or macaroni with fortified nutritional yeast 'cheezy sauce'.


So you are from the Planet Vegan. No wonder you are such a twat.
You really need a good bit of meat inside you, like any normal human


Your kind would never have left the jungle. Without hunting apes could not have evolved.
The computer you are typing on and the chair you sit on has depended on the work of meat easters.
You are a paracite.

The rest of your post is irrelevant, misconceived and off beam.
Planet Vegan is superior to your planet, Planet Earth, dominated by the species known as the Tards. I doubt it will last for 100 more years.

Unless you hunt your own meat, stfu because you are the ultimate parasite.

"Technology has depended on the work of meat-eaters" Yes I know and it sickens me that I have no choice but to give money to them and scum like you to survive. They and you disgust me.

"Your kind would never have left the jungle."

Your kind should have stayed in the jungle. Now there's hardly any jungle left.
Pluto
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by Pluto »

From the Moon landing sketch go they to Diana's death in Paris.

We can see the comedy show in two ways, one, it debunks rightly the ridiculous claims made, while being topical it positions people who believe as very stupid. The audience (canned laughter) laughs, reassured.

Two, the sketch creates a false impression of reality. Using comedy not to debunk but to cover over and hide, to subsume the act in comedic banality. To reinforce the position of all is well in the land of Oz. To say power is in control and we are right to support it. The audience laughs, hysterically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4meFC1ee7Q
Pluto
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by Pluto »

The whole idea is that we avoid "truthers". So called "truthers" exist at either end of the spectrum. That's the point of my post.
Yes, you have a problem with the word I think because it's loaded, it suggests they seek truth as it hasn't been yet found.

Of course we have people who believe the queen UK is lizard and that the report made by the warren commission is full of holes.
Pluto
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by Pluto »

Yes and that's why the amount of moon rock available tends towards the conclusion that we must have got it from there as your link gave the stats for how much is found and if you'd read more you'd find we appear to have a vastly greater quantity than would be available from sky fall. How would you explain that?
All this faith in those who have the reins of power. How much dust do you have before you can say you went to the moon. To your question I would say you have too much faith in corridors of power. They can say what they want, yes we have a lot of dust, then you read it in a paper and say oh look they have a lot of dust it says here. Way too faithful.
Who is this 'they'? What on earth are you talking about with this 'historical enemies'?
Those with the power to shape reality. What on earth, don't be so shocked, for, Power's historical enemy is the people. No? The Power's number one enemy is 'its' (we might say) people. There is a war always going on, the mediated landscape is a battleground, yet the people, though not happy with power, see it as structurally benevolent, wantingly.
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

Pluto wrote:From the Moon landing sketch go they to Diana's death in Paris.

We can see the comedy show in two ways, one, it debunks rightly the ridiculous claims made, while being topical it positions people who believe as very stupid. The audience (canned laughter) laughs, reassured.

Two, the sketch creates a false impression of reality. Using comedy not to debunk but to cover over and hide, to subsume the act in comedic banality. To reinforce the position of all is well in the land of Oz. To say power is in control and we are right to support it. The audience laughs, hysterically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4meFC1ee7Q
I think the idiotic Pluto must have watched THIS one..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6MOnehCOUw
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Hobbes' Choice
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by Hobbes' Choice »

PLuto is the one on the Right..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6MOnehCOUw
Pluto
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by Pluto »

If you can only be insulting, stop posting.
Ginkgo
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by Ginkgo »

Pluto wrote:
Yes, you have a problem with the word I think because it's loaded, it suggests they seek truth as it hasn't been yet found.
No, I don't have a problem with the world. I have a problem with the lunatic fringe who seeks nothing except to promote their own "bootstrap" theories that are nothing more than an attempt to fulfill some type of American idealism and the ensuing psychological problems that wreaks havoc with such susceptible individuals.
Pluto wrote: Of course we have people who believe the queen UK is lizard and that the report made by the warren commission is full of holes.
No, as I pointed out with my wikipedia quote, these two statements are cannot in any way be comparable. The former is a lunatic theory, while the latter has more credibility. It is possible to dismiss your former example, while at the same time not being able dismiss the latter so easily. This is the whole point of a continuum of credibility.
Pluto
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by Pluto »

Then I don't know what you are saying, I used the word 'word' and you changed it to 'world'. You seem to be clouding the topic somewhat. If we speak of the twin towers falling down conspiracy is more credible than lizard queen, this is obvious. But the two are put in the same camp. The latter is used to weaken the former, as the latter is so outlandish.
Ginkgo
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Re: Mirror on the Moon

Post by Ginkgo »

Pluto wrote:Then I don't know what you are saying, I used the word 'word' and you changed it to 'world'. You seem to be clouding the topic somewhat. If we speak of the twin towers falling down conspiracy is more credible than lizard queen, this is obvious. But the two are put in the same camp. The latter is used to weaken the former, as the latter is so outlandish.
Sorry, my mistake. I mistook "word" for "world". Perhaps I was looking for something that wasn't there.
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