TREASON!

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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re:

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

henry quirk wrote:One man's treason is another's just rebellion.
Either way, I don't blame them for rebelling. Just apes fighting apes. America's no better than the UK.

This thread is typical ape hubris about nothing, similar to salem witch trials in that vein.
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Arising_uk
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Re: TREASON!

Post by Arising_uk »

thedoc wrote:I agree with Henry, push the damned button.
So no different from your view of the Iranians.
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Arising_uk
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Re: TREASON!

Post by Arising_uk »

henry quirk wrote:...
Also: you see the President as 'honorable' while I see him as 'incompetent'; you believe his negotiations with Iran are meant to foster peaceful relations while I see such negotiations as mere capitulation to an enemy who -- at the first chance – will do as promised, that being: 'kill Israel', 'kill the West', and 'Kill America'.
Who gave them this cause?
Wyman
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Re: TREASON!

Post by Wyman »

Arising_uk wrote:
henry quirk wrote:...
Also: you see the President as 'honorable' while I see him as 'incompetent'; you believe his negotiations with Iran are meant to foster peaceful relations while I see such negotiations as mere capitulation to an enemy who -- at the first chance – will do as promised, that being: 'kill Israel', 'kill the West', and 'Kill America'.
Who gave them this cause?
England! :wink:
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Post by henry quirk »

"Who gave them this cause?"

The root is sharia, the West (America, etc.) is the target because 'it' is so obviously and defiantly anti-sharia.
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Arising_uk
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Re: TREASON!

Post by Arising_uk »

Nope, the Shah gave them this cause and then the attack by Iraq gave the fundamentalists the chance to clean house.
Blaggard
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Re: TREASON!

Post by Blaggard »

Yeah back when the Iranians had a nice little democratic state with a Prime Minister and British Petroleum, as it was then a government ran institution ot protect oil rights in Iran, interestingly headed by Winstion Churchill himself.But I digress then they said we will not give favourable oil rights to the West that inconvenience us, because we are not being paid enough for them. Then the West overthrew the parliamentary democracy and put in a Shah who was pro West who would supply the oil to the West under favourable conditions. Unfortuantely though as with most dictators the country went to ruin as the rich got richer and the poor got non benefit from this oil trade. So after the American built nuclear reactors so that Iran could keep more of its oil, the people rebelled, creating a Theocracy, which at least they did vote on, even if they are labouring under it now.

Nuclear enrichment facilities for nuclear fuel reactors, supplied by Europe in fact by German and other companies under the understanding they would enrich fuel to save oil resources. No one is denied the ability to produce nuclear power for peaceful means, except Iran because the US says so. If Iran used it's oil in power stations like Iraq does, it would lose so much money on an extremely valuable commodity, it is not even funny. But America and others are trying to force them to do that, despite the CIA saying that Iran is at least 10 years away from a nuclear weapon. Politics is a dirty business...
Last edited by Blaggard on Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
thedoc
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Re: TREASON!

Post by thedoc »

The Sharia preaches subjugation and slavery, America preaches freedom and liberty, the practices may not be perfect, but that is the rhetoric, and that is what the Sharia can't tolerate. The only reason that Iraq, Iran and Saudi and others aren't openly attacking the US is because we buy their oil. If we stopped buying oil they would turn on us just as quickly as they could draw their Scimitars.
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Re: TREASON!

Post by Blaggard »

Yeah you reap what you sow mate, you overthrow democracy and introduce a Monarch so you and indeed England can gain oil concessions. And then moan about a theocracy, well that smacks of hypocrisy to me.

The beam from thine own eye first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Irani ... 7%C3%A9tat
United States motives

Historians disagree on what motivated the United States to change its policy towards Iran and stage the coup. Middle East historian Ervand Abrahamian identified the coup d'état as "a classic case of nationalism clashing with imperialism in the Third World". He states that Secretary of State Dean Acheson admitted the "'Communist threat' was a smokescreen" in responding to President Eisenhower's claim that the Tudeh party was about to assume power.[97]

Throughout the crisis, the "communist danger" was more of a rhetorical device than a real issue—i.e. it was part of the cold-war discourse ...The Tudeh was no match for the armed tribes and the 129,000-man military. What is more, the British and Americans had enough inside information to be confident that the party had no plans to initiate armed insurrection. At the beginning of the crisis, when the Truman administration was under the impression a compromise was possible, Acheson had stressed the communist danger, and warned if Mosaddegh was not helped, the Tudeh would take over. The (British) Foreign Office had retorted that the Tudeh was no real threat. But, in August 1953, when the Foreign Office echoed the Eisenhower administration's claim that the Tudeh was about to take over, Acheson now retorted that there was no such communist danger. Acheson was honest enough to admit that the issue of the Tudeh was a smokescreen.[97]

Abrahamian states that Iran's oil was the central focus of the coup, for both the British and the Americans, though "much of the discourse at the time linked it to the Cold War".[98] Abrahamian wrote, "If Mosaddegh had succeeded in nationalizing the British oil industry in Iran, that would have set an example and was seen at that time by the Americans as a threat to U.S. oil interests throughout the world, because other countries would do the same."[98] Mosaddegh did not want any compromise solution that allowed a degree of foreign control. Abrahamian said that Mosaddegh "wanted real nationalization, both in theory and practice".[98]

Tirman points out that agricultural land owners were politically dominant in Iran, well into the 1960s and the monarch, Reza Shah's aggressive land expropriation policies—to the benefit of himself and his supporters—resulted in the Iranian government being Iran's largest land owner. "The landlords and oil producers had new backing, moreover, as American interests were for the first time exerted in Iran. The Cold War was starting, and Soviet challenges were seen in every leftist movement. But the reformers were at root nationalists, not communists, and the issue that galvanized them above all others was the control of oil."[99] The belief that oil was the central motivator behind the coup has been echoed in the popular media by authors such as Robert Byrd,[100] Alan Greenspan,[101] and Ted Koppel.[102]

However, Middle East political scientist Mark Gasiorowski states that while, on the face of it, there is considerable merit to the argument that U.S. policymakers helped U.S. oil companies gain a share in Iranian oil production after the coup, "it seems more plausible to argue that U.S. policymakers were motivated mainly by fears of a communist takeover in Iran, and that the involvement of U.S. companies was sought mainly to prevent this from occurring. The Cold War was at its height in the early 1950s, and the Soviet Union was viewed as an expansionist power seeking world domination. Eisenhower had made the Soviet threat a key issue in the 1952 elections, accusing the Democrats of being soft on communism and of having 'lost China.' Once in power, the new administration quickly sought to put its views into practice."[50]

Gasiorowski further states "the major U.S. oil companies were not interested in Iran at this time. A glut existed in the world oil market. The U.S. majors had increased their production in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait in 1951 in order to make up for the loss of Iranian production; operating in Iran would force them to cut back production in these countries which would create tensions with Saudi and Kuwaiti leaders. Furthermore, if nationalist sentiments remained high in Iran, production there would be risky. U.S. oil companies had shown no interest in Iran in 1951 and 1952. By late 1952, the Truman administration had come to believe that participation by U.S. companies in the production of Iranian oil was essential to maintain stability in Iran and keep Iran out of Soviet hands. In order to gain the participation of the major U.S. oil companies, Truman offered to scale back a large anti-trust case then being brought against them. The Eisenhower administration shared Truman's views on the participation of U.S. companies in Iran and also agreed to scale back the anti-trust case. Thus, not only did U.S. majors not want to participate in Iran at this time, it took a major effort by U.S. policymakers to persuade them to become involved."[50]

In 2004, Gasiorowski edited a book on the coup[103] arguing that "the climate of intense cold war rivalry between the superpowers, together with Iran's strategic vital location between the Soviet Union and the Persian Gulf oil fields, led U.S. officials to believe that they had to take whatever steps were necessary to prevent Iran from falling into Soviet hands."[103] While "these concerns seem vastly overblown today"[103] the pattern of "the 1945–46 Azerbaijan crisis, the consolidation of Soviet control in Eastern Europe, the communist triumph in China, and the Korean War—and with the Red Scare at its height in the United States"[103] would not allow U.S. officials to risk allowing the Tudeh Party to gain power in Iran.[103] Furthermore, "U.S. officials believed that resolving the oil dispute was essential for restoring stability in Iran, and after March 1953 it appeared that the dispute could be resolved only at the expense either of Britain or of Mosaddeq."[103] He concludes "it was geostrategic considerations, rather than a desire to destroy Mosaddeq's movement, to establish a dictatorship in Iran or to gain control over Iran's oil, that persuaded U.S. officials to undertake the coup."[103]

Faced with choosing between British interests and Iran, the U.S. chose Britain, Gasiorowski said. "Britain was the closest ally of the United States, and the two countries were working as partners on a wide range of vitally important matters throughout the world at this time. Preserving this close relationship was more important to U.S. officials than saving Mosaddeq's tottering regime." A year earlier, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill used Britain's support for the U.S. in the Cold War to insist the United States not undermine his campaign to isolate Mosaddegh. "Britain was supporting the Americans in Korea, he reminded Truman, and had a right to expect 'Anglo-American unity' on Iran."[104]

The two main winners of World War II, who had been Allies during the war, became superpowers and competitors as soon as the war ended, each with their own spheres of influence and client states. After the 1953 coup, Iran became one of the client states of the United States. In his earlier book, U.S. Foreign Policy and the Shah: Building a Client State in Iran, Gasiorowski identifies the client states of the United States and of the Soviet Union during 1954–1977. Gasiorowski identified Cambodia, Guatemala, Indonesia, Iran, Laos, Nicaragua, Panama, the Philippines, South Korea, South Vietnam, and Taiwan as strong client states of the United States and identified those that were moderately important to the U.S. as Bolivia, Brazil, Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Greece, Haiti, Honduras, Israel, Jordan, Liberia, Pakistan, Paraguay, Thailand, Tunisia, Turkey, and Zaire. He named Argentina, Chile, Ethiopia, Japan, and Peru as "weak" client states of the United States.[105]

Gasiorowski identified Bulgaria, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Mongolia, Poland, North Vietnam, and Rumania as "strong client states" of the Soviet Union, and Afghanistan, Egypt, Guinea, North Korea, Somalia, and Syria as moderately important client states. Mali and South Yemen were classified as weak client states of the Soviet Union.

According to Kinzer, for most Americans, the crisis in Iran became just part of the conflict between Communism and "the Free world".[106] "A great sense of fear, particularly the fear of encirclement, shaped American consciousness during this period. ... Soviet power had already subdued Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. Communist governments were imposed on Bulgaria and Romania in 1946, Hungary and Poland in 1947, and Czechoslovakia in 1948. Albania and Yugoslavia also turned to communism. Greek communists made a violent bid for power. Soviet soldiers blocked land routes to Berlin for sixteen months. In 1949, the Soviet Union successfully tested a nuclear weapon. That same year, pro-Western forces in China lost their civil war to communists led by Mao Zedong. From Washington, it seemed that enemies were on the march everywhere."[106] Consequently, "the United States, challenged by what most Americans saw as a relentless communist advance, slowly ceased to view Iran as a country with a unique history that faced a unique political challenge."[107] Some historians, including Douglas Little,[108] Abbas Milani[109] and George Lenczowski[110] have echoed the view that fears of a communist takeover or Soviet influence motivated the U.S. to intervene.

Shortly before the overthrow of Mossadegh, Adolf A. Berle warned the U.S. State Department that U.S. "control of the Middle East was at stake, which, with its Persian Gulf oil, meant 'substantial control of the world.'"[111]
News coverage in the United States and Great Britain

When Mossadegh called for the dissolution of the Majlis in August 1953, the editors of the New York Times gave the opinion that: "A plebiscite more fantastic and farcical than any ever held under Hitler or Stalin is now being staged in Iran by Premier Mossadegh in an effort to make himself unchallenged dictator of the country."[112]

A year after the coup, the New York Times wrote on 6 August 1954, that a new oil "agreement between Iran and a consortium of foreign oil companies" was "good news indeed".[113]

"Costly as the dispute over Iranian oil has been to all concerned, the affair may yet be proved worthwhile if lessons are learned from it: Underdeveloped countries with rich resources now have an object lesson in the heavy cost that must be paid by one of their number which goes berserk with fanatical nationalism. It is perhaps too much to hope that Iran's experience will prevent the rise of Mossadeghs in other countries, but that experience may at least strengthen the hands of more reasonable and more far-seeing leaders. In some circles in Great Britain the charge will be pushed that American 'imperialism'—in the shape of the American oil firms in the consortium!—has once again elbowed Britain from a historic stronghold."[113]

The British government used the BBC's Persian service for advancing its propaganda against Mosaddegh. Anti-Mosaddegh material were repeatedly aired on the radio channel to the extent that Iranian staff at the BBC Persian radio went on strike to protest the move.[114] The documentary Cinematograph aired on 18 August 2011 on the anniversary of the coup. In it, BBC admitted for the first time to the role of BBC Persian radio as the propaganda arm of the British government in Iran. The Cinematograph narrator said:

The British government used the BBC Persian radio for advancing its propaganda against Mosaddegh and anti-Mosaddegh material were repeatedly aired on the radio channel to the extent that Iranian staff at the BBC Persian radio went on strike to protest the move.

The documentary quoted a 21 July 1951 classified document in which a Foreign Office official thanked the British ambassador for his proposals that were precisely followed by the BBC Persian radio to strengthen its propaganda against Mosaddegh:

The BBC had already made most of the points which you listed, but they were very glad to have an indication from you of what was likely to be most effective and will arrange their programme accordingly... We should also avoid direct attacks on the 'ruling classes' since it seems probable that we may want to deal with a government drawn from those classes should Mosaddegh fall.

The document further stressed that the Foreign Office "shall be grateful for [the ambassador's] comments on the propaganda line we have proposed".[115]
Aftermath

The coup has been said to have "left a profound and long-lasting legacy."[116][117]
Blowback

According to the history based on documents released to the National Security Archive and reflected in the book Mohammad Mosaddeq and the 1953 Coup in Iran, edited by Mark J. Gasiorowski and Malcolm Byrne, the coup caused long-lasting damage to the U.S. reputation.

"The '28 Mordad' coup, as it is known by its Persian date [in the Solar Hijri calendar], was a watershed for Iran, for the Middle East and for the standing of the United States in the region. The joint U.S.-British operation ended Iran's drive to assert sovereign control over its own resources and helped put an end to a vibrant chapter in the history of the country's nationalist and democratic movements. These consequences resonated with dramatic effect in later years. When the Shah finally fell in 1979, memories of the U.S. intervention in 1953, which made possible the monarch's subsequent, and increasingly unpopular, 25-year reign intensified the anti-American character of the revolution in the minds of many Iranians."[118]

The authoritarian monarch appreciated the coup, Kermit Roosevelt wrote in his account of the affair. "'I owe my throne to God, my people, my army and to you!' By 'you' he [the shah] meant me and the two countries—Great Britain and the United States—I was representing. We were all heroes."[81]

On 16 June 2000, The New York Times published the secret CIA report, "Clandestine Service History, Overthrow of Premier Mossadeq of Iran, November 1952 – August 1953," partly explaining the coup from CIA agent Wilber's perspective. In a related story, The New York Times reporter James Risen penned a story revealing that Wilber's report, hidden for nearly five decades, had recently come to light.

In the summer of 2001, Ervand Abrahamian writes in the journal Science & Society that Wilber's version of the coup was missing key information some of which was available elsewhere.

The New York Times recently leaked a CIA report on the 1953 American-British overthrow of Mosaddeq, Iran's Prime Minister. It billed the report as a secret history of the secret coup, and treated it as an invaluable substitute for the U.S. files that remain inaccessible. But a reconstruction of the coup from other sources, especially from the archives of the British Foreign Office, indicates that this report is highly sanitized. It glosses over such sensitive issues as the crucial participation of the U.S. ambassador in the actual overthrow; the role of U.S. military advisers; the harnessing of local Nazis and Muslim terrorists; and the use of assassinations to destabilize the government. What is more, it places the coup in the context of the Cold War rather than that of the Anglo-Iranian oil crisis—a classic case of nationalism clashing with imperialism in the Third World.[119]

In a review of Tim Weiner's Legacy of Ashes, historian Michael Beschloss wrote, "Mr. Weiner argues that a bad C.I.A. track record has encouraged many of our gravest contemporary problems... A generation of Iranians grew up knowing that the C.I.A. had installed the shah," Mr. Weiner notes. "In time, the chaos that the agency had created in the streets of Tehran would return to haunt the United States."[120]

The administration of Dwight D. Eisenhower considered the coup a success, but, given its blowback, that opinion is no longer generally held, because of its "haunting and terrible legacy".[121] In 2000, Madeleine Albright, U.S. Secretary of State, said that intervention by the U.S. in the internal affairs of Iran was a setback for democratic government.[122][123] The coup is widely believed to have significantly contributed to the 1979 Iranian Revolution, which deposed the "pro-Western" Shah and replaced the monarchy with an "anti-Western" Islamic Republic.[31]

"For many Iranians, the coup demonstrated duplicity by the United States, which presented itself as a defender of freedom but did not hesitate to use underhanded methods to overthrow a democratically elected government to suit its own economic and strategic interests", the Agence France-Presse reported.[124]

United States Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas, who visited Iran both before and after the coup, wrote that "When Mossadegh and Persia started basic reforms, we became alarmed. We united with the British to destroy him; we succeeded; and ever since, our name has not been an honored one in the Middle East."[125]
Wyman
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Re: TREASON!

Post by Wyman »

the crucial participation of the U.S. ambassador in the actual overthrow; the role of U.S. military advisers; the harnessing of local Nazis and Muslim terrorists; and the use of assassinations to destabilize the government.
Ah, the good old days of realpolitik in U.S. diplomacy where at least we tried to get something (oil) out of our efforts. Too bad Afghanistan has no oil and we left Iraq in tatters. No worry, our friends in Saudi Arabia have plenty.
Unfortuantely though as with most dictators the country went to ruin as the rich got richer and the poor got non benefit from this oil trade
I thought capitalism leads to ruin where the rich get richer...
American built nuclear reactors so that Iran could keep more of its oil,
Well that was nice of us
No one is denied the ability to produce nuclear power for peaceful means, except Iran
But you have to sign a treaty and submit to UN inspections first. Maybe a good idea when the motto of the government under consideration is 'Obliterate Isreal' or 'We kill Jews' or something to that effect.
because the US says so.
And the UN
Theocracy, which at least they did vote on,
So it turned out well after all :lol:
Blaggard
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Re: TREASON!

Post by Blaggard »

You really are quite a bunch of wankers aren't you.

Everyone cannot really get you you now, in your golden age you chose to waste it on political posturing: fading world power, in debt to China, and still firing .00000000001%


At least when we had the empire we had the grace to go down with a shout not a whimper. Yo: whine too much, you cry too much and for a country that has it all, it is depressing to watch you die.

When you think all America could have been, they just chose in the land of the free to repeat all the mistakes Europe did. Which at least we own up to.
Melchior
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Re: TREASON!

Post by Melchior »

Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!
Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!Bill Wiltrack is a fucking moron!
Wyman
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Re: TREASON!

Post by Wyman »

Blaggard wrote:You really are quite a bunch of wankers aren't you.

Everyone cannot really get you you now, in your golden age you chose to waste it on political posturing: fading world power, in debt to China, and still firing .00000000001%


At least when we had the empire we had the grace to go down with a shout not a whimper. Yo: whine too much, you cry too much and for a country that has it all, it is depressing to watch you die.

When you think all America could have been, they just chose in the land of the free to repeat all the mistakes Europe did.
Which at least we own up to.
No, spineless apologists drone on about. I'm proud of what Europe has done through history. Not all of it, but what is the use of dwelling on the negative? I generally take credit for what I've done, not what my ancestors or their neighbors have done. But if you're going to put the Crusades or slavery on me because I'm of European descent, then I'm going to take claim to Newton, Einstein and Da Vinci, etc..
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Re: TREASON!

Post by Bill Wiltrack »

.


OMG...OMFG!


Just found out that ALL 47 TRAITORS are from the SAME political party - !!!


- On top of that this is the SAME political party that invited Benjamin Netanyahu to speak to the Senate.

And to make matters worse that speech just cost Netanyahu's party to majority election!!!


What a clusterfuck! No wonder most countries hang TRAITORS.


- Will update you as information progresses.




.
Melchior
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Re: TREASON!

Post by Melchior »

Bill Wiltrack wrote:.


OMG...OMFG!


Just found out that ALL 47 TRAITORS are from the SAME political party - !!!


- On top of that this is the SAME political party that invited Benjamin Netanyahu to speak to the Senate.

And to make matters worse that speech just cost Netanyahu's party to majority election!!!


What a clusterfuck! No wonder most countries hang TRAITORS.


- Will update you as information progresses.




.
You are a giant black hole of idiocy.
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