Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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uwot
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by uwot »

SpheresOfBalance wrote:Come on uwot, observation is not unreliable, at least not 100% of the time. If the observation is not scientifically scrutinized, then maybe. Otherwise no way. Give me an example of this. Wait a minute you can't, because in it's telling/showing lies the truth that observation is in fact reliable.
It's not the observation that is unreliable, it is the hypothesis we generate to explain it that is unreliable. It's the problem of induction, which Immanuel Can mentioned. Bertrand Russell illustrated the problem with a story about a farm yard chicken; every day the farmer comes into the coop, just after dawn and throws the chicken a handful of feed. After many examples of this behaviour, the chicken formulates the hypothesis that this will always happen and so runs up to the farmer. One day, just after dawn, the farmer comes into the coop, the chicken runs up to him and the farmer wrings its neck.
A less tragic example is the assumption of both Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein that massive bodies always attract. The discovery of the accelerating recession of distant galaxies seriously challenges that. The current explanation is 'dark energy'; the name is an admission that there is no known cause for the acceleration, but the observational data (the red shift) is there for anyone to see. As such, and as you suggest, it is in that sense completely reliable.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by Immanuel Can »

I really don't think you do understand the Cogito.
Actually, if I may be so bold as to contradict, I would suggest it's rather you who has misunderstood the Cogito.
They realised that Descartes was right that the only thing we can be sure of is that there are phenomena.
Incorrect. "Phenomena" would posit the existence of an external world. Descartes did not get us that far. He tried to, but he failed. Once you use radical doubt to reduce all knowledge to the cognitions of a single thinker, you can't be sure that those cognitions are not self-generated illusions, as Descartes himself says.
We know beyond any conceivable doubt that there is something and that there is thinking; as Descartes pointed out, the same is not true of any other proposition that I am aware of.
If that's the standard you expect of the word "knowledge," then by your own admission here, you don't know anything beyond that there is some entity (in specific, you and only you) "thinking." That's it. You don't even know if there is an external *cause* of that thinking.

But right now, you're acting as if there is. You're writing in cyberspace to a distant person you are taking for granted exists and is typing back. So even the "knowledge" required for daily functioning requires a less rigorous definition of "knowledge" than the Cogito offers.

And if even YOU can't stick to the standard of "knowledge" you specify, as you are thereby demonstrating, then who can? You need to revise your conception of "knowing."

P.S. --
And 1 and 2 versions come from...???
They come from the only two things I think "There is no God" can imply: namely that you "know" it by evidence from the external world, or you "know" it as an internal impression of your own. If you think there is a third possibility, feel free to add it.
uwot
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by uwot »

Immanuel Can wrote:"Phenomena" would posit the existence of an external world.

What is it about any phenomenon that necessarily implies an external world?
Immanuel Can wrote:Descartes did not get us that far. He tried to, but he failed. Once you use radical doubt to reduce all knowledge to the cognitions of a single thinker, you can't be sure that those cognitions are not self-generated illusions, as Descartes himself says.
Indeed. And the conclusion that Descartes draws is that whatever the source of the phenomena that he is experiencing, or thinking, as per the Cogito, it is self-refuting to think he isn't thinking.
Immanuel Can wrote:
We know beyond any conceivable doubt that there is something and that there is thinking; as Descartes pointed out, the same is not true of any other proposition that I am aware of.
If that's the standard you expect of the word "knowledge," then by your own admission here, you don't know anything beyond that there is some entity (in specific, you and only you) "thinking." That's it. You don't even know if there is an external *cause* of that thinking.
That is the flaw with the Cogito: the only thing that is certain is that there is some sensation. Personally, I am entirely comfortable with my standard of knowledge: if it were any less, it might let in sloppy concepts like god.
Immanuel Can wrote:But right now, you're acting as if there is. You're writing in cyberspace to a distant person you are taking for granted exists and is typing back. So even the "knowledge" required for daily functioning requires a less rigorous definition of "knowledge" than the Cogito offers.
It's called induction. If any information comes to my attention that you are not really there, I shall adjust my behaviour accordingly.
Immanuel Can wrote:And if even YOU can't stick to the standard of "knowledge" you specify, as you are thereby demonstrating, then who can? You need to revise your conception of "knowing."
Not really. I know the difference between absolute, contingent and analytic knowledge.
If you read the Meditations or the Discourse on Method, you will find that Descartes explicity states the purpose of the Cogito. I can't remember the exact words, but Descartes quite clearly says that it was his aim to doubt everything until he discovered something that he couldn't; an impervious foundation on which to build a sound body of knowledge, in the mode of Euclid. Mind you, Euclid's fifth axiom is well dodgy. Anyway, you can entertain any number of outlandish propositions that could account for the feelings and thoughts you have, but you cannot doubt that you are feeling or thinking them. Nor, as Parmenides pointed out, can you coherently state 'Nothing exists'. Everything else is more or less theory laden. Get over it.
Immanuel Can wrote:P.S. --
And 1 and 2 versions come from...???
They come from the only two things I think "There is no God" can imply: namely that you "know" it by evidence from the external world, or you "know" it as an internal impression of your own. If you think there is a third possibility, feel free to add it.
Immanuel Can wrote:Ah yes...the old "false dichotomy." One of the most common fallacies. Well spotted.
Well, it would have been, had you spotted it.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Indeed. And the conclusion that Descartes draws is that whatever the source of the phenomena that he is experiencing, or thinking, as per the Cogito, it is self-refuting to think he isn't thinking.
Yes. But what he did NOT say was that these thoughts were something one could know were being produced by phenomena. It's "cogito, ergo sum," not "cogito, ergo phenomena sunt." "I think, therefore I am," not "I think, therefore phenomena exist."
Personally, I am entirely comfortable with my standard of knowledge: if it were any less, it might let in sloppy concepts like god
.
Personally, of course, you are free to be "comfortable" with anything. But "comfort" isn't really the issue. Consistency is. That is, if you are consistent with your view that only the cogito illustrates the only kind of true "knowledge," then "true knowledge" of the external world is cut off from you. You are forced by your own position either to practice what you have identified as "unknowledgeable" behavior, such as typing to persons you cannot "know" exist, or else to fall eternally silent and self-contained.

Ergo, as we continue this conversation, there are only two possibilities. Either you are not sincerely committed to cogito-type knowledge, or you are being inconsistent. Whether or not you are "comfortable" with such inconsistency would not be a philosophical issue. But your "knowledge" view would be philosophically irrational, then.
Get over it.
Actually, I'm not even mildly troubled by it. But then, I don't hold to the definition of "knowledge" you've specified, so I don't have to be. For I think inductive knowledge counts -- but you've pitched for the idea that "knowledge" = radical-doubt-type cogito knowledge, in which case inductive knowledge would not count as true knowledge for you.


A question:

I wrote: "There is no God" can imply: namely that you "know" it by evidence from the external world, or you "know" it as an internal impression of your own. If you think there is a third possibility, feel free to add it.

You responded:
Well, it would have been, had you spotted it.
The thrust of this rapier move is lost on me here. :D

Are you saying you have a third option to offer, so you can prove my version 1-version 2 dichotomy is false? If you do, why not just offer it, and you'll have conclusively shown me wrong...a perfect rebuke!

Oops. You don't have it! :wink:
Ginkgo
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by Ginkgo »

Immanuel Can wrote:Descartes did not get us that far. He tried to, but he failed. Once you use radical doubt to reduce all knowledge to the cognitions of a single thinker, you can't be sure that those cognitions are not self-generated illusions, as Descartes himself says.
Actually, Descartes did provide an argument for the existence of the external world. "God is no deceiver". You will find this argument in his Meditations. The fourth I think.
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ReliStuPhD
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by ReliStuPhD »

uwot wrote:
ReliStuPhD wrote:
Immanuel Can wrote:Again, the most the Agnostic position can say is, "I don't know." But it cannot with any conviction or justice say, "You don't know," and certainly not, "It cannot be known by anyone." It simply cannot know these latter two things.
We might go so far as to say that the latter two positions would undermine the claim to agnosticism insofar as they are positive statements with respect to what can--or, in this case, cannot--be known. Almost by definition, Agnosticism is a personal position.
I don't know why agnosticism was introduced, but you are both missing the point: any proposition expressed other than those two could be untrue; it is not self refuting to say: "I don't live in London", or "God doesn't exist", in the way it gibberish to say "Nothing at all exists" or "There is absolutely no thinking".
afaik, agnosticism was introduced by spheres, who then produced to make some fairly strong non-agnostic claims. The agnostic can't have his cake and eat it too.
Ginkgo
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by Ginkgo »

Immanuel Can wrote: P.S. --
And 1 and 2 versions come from...???
They come from the only two things I think "There is no God" can imply: namely that you "know" it by evidence from the external world, or you "know" it as an internal impression of your own. If you think there is a third possibility, feel free to add it.

Thanks, I will join in.

I don't think two or three things are going to cut the mustard when it comes to this issue. If you dealing with only stupid and self-refuting argugments then one could just as easily show you know there is a God by way of evidence obtained from the external world, or you know there is a God by way of internal impressions. In other words, there are numerous other account when it comes to atheism and agnosticism.

In respect of Versions 1 & 2 Do these represent arguments against atheism or agnosticism? Perhaps some sort of combination of both?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Actually, Descartes did provide an argument for the existence of the external world. "God is no deceiver". You will find this argument in his Meditations. The fourth I think.
Oh, I know this. But atheists would not accept that logical reparation of the problem, since it would require them to believe in God. So we can't very well appeal to that strategy, can we?
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by Immanuel Can »

If you dealing with only stupid and self-refuting argugments then one could just as easily show you know there is a God by way of evidence obtained from the external world, or you know there is a God by way of internal impressions.
You could seek either kind of evidence or both. But nothing would be self-refuting about doing that. Only Knowledge-Agnosticism is self-refuting. Theism isn't.

However, Atheism is different, precisely for the reason that it sets to itself the challenge of positively proving the NON-existence of an entity, whereas Theism only has to prove that same Entity's existence.

So now, think carefully: what does the Theist have to do to prove his case, and what does the Atheist have to do to prove his? Answer: the Atheist must show that at nowhere, no time, and under no conditions was there ever anything that could justly be called "God" or "a god"; and that He exists nowhere in the cosmos right now. No Gods. Period.

But what does the Theist have to show? How many evidences will prove his case? That's right: just one. One. Any one. For if there is any kind of a God...the Islamic one, the Deistic one, the Polytheistic ones...any one...at any time, at any place, then the Atheist is proved wrong. If even one evidence for God turns out to be authentically evidentiary, then Atheism simply isn't true.
In other words, there are numerous other account when it comes to atheism and agnosticism.
There are varieties of Agnosticism, but only two bases upon which any form of Agnosticism can be claimed.

It can be claimed on the basis, "I don't know if there is a God," which is fair enough but covers only one person; or it can be claimed on the basis, "I know you all cannot know whether there is a God," which is silly because no one can know what others can or cannot know; nor can they be sure what is knowable.

All varieties of Agnosticism are one or the other of these two kinds, at least when it comes to the basis of their claim.

Two is not so "numerous," really.

There are no other varieties of Atheism. Atheism is very, very simple, by definition. It just means "No gods." If any god or Gods of any kind exist at all, then Atheism is untrue.
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by Ginkgo »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Actually, Descartes did provide an argument for the existence of the external world. "God is no deceiver". You will find this argument in his Meditations. The fourth I think.
Oh, I know this. But atheists would not accept that logical reparation of the problem, since it would require them to believe in God. So we can't very well appeal to that strategy, can we?
Of course... it's common knowledge.

Atheists not accepting Descartes argument for the external world is true. Going by the conservation you had with uwot you were also having a lot of trouble accepting Descartes argument as well. Hindsight perhaps?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Going by the conservation you had with uwot you were also having a lot of trouble accepting Descartes argument as well.
I'm not a Cartesian, if that's what you mean. But I can follow the logic of Descartes position to its conclusion, and tell you what that is. So I was just showing where it leads, not saying I want to go there.

In fact, I don't think anyone is rational to go there, once they understand induction.
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by Ginkgo »

Immanuel Can wrote: You could seek either kind of evidence or both. But nothing would be self-refuting about doing that. Only Knowledge-Agnosticism is self-refuting. Theism isn't.
Interesting. SO lets take the empirical evidence for starters. On this basis an argument from design would not be self-refuting. Would you like me to tell you why it isn't self-refuting? I could then tell you why it is.
Immanuel Can wrote:
However, Atheism is different, precisely for the reason that it sets to itself the challenge of positively proving the NON-existence of an entity, whereas Theism only has to prove that same Entity's existence.
Perhaps you can tell me how an argument from design positively proves the existence of a supernatural entity.
Last edited by Ginkgo on Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
uwot
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by uwot »

Sorry to butt in:
Immanuel Can wrote:
Indeed. And the conclusion that Descartes draws is that whatever the source of the phenomena that he is experiencing, or thinking, as per the Cogito, it is self-refuting to think he isn't thinking.
Yes. But what he did NOT say was that these thoughts were something one could know were being produced by phenomena.
You obviously don't know what phenomenon means.
Immanuel Can wrote:It's "cogito, ergo sum," not "cogito, ergo phenomena sunt." "I think, therefore I am," not "I think, therefore phenomena exist."
If there were nobody (or more broadly, nothing) to perceive them, there wouldn't be any phenomena. Again, if you read the Meditations or the Discourse, you will see that Descartes is using 'think' to embrace anything that might be called mental activity. Any phenomenon that Descartes, or anyone else, is aware of is ultimately a mental phenomenon. No phenomenon can be taken as proof of a noumenal reality; as Berkeley demonstrated, empiricism is entirely consistent with idealism.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Personally, I am entirely comfortable with my standard of knowledge: if it were any less, it might let in sloppy concepts like god
.
Personally, of course, you are free to be "comfortable" with anything. But "comfort" isn't really the issue. Consistency is. That is, if you are consistent with your view that only the cogito illustrates the only kind of true "knowledge," then "true knowledge" of the external world is cut off from you.
As I said:
uwot wrote:I know the difference between absolute, contingent and analytic knowledge.
Clearly you don't.
Immanuel Can wrote:You are forced by your own position either to practice what you have identified as "unknowledgeable" behavior, such as typing to persons you cannot "know" exist, or else to fall eternally silent and self-contained.
False dichotomy. I have said many times that to my mind, the most plausible explanation for all the phenomena that give the impression of an external world is an external world that is responsible for the phenomena. What I haven't done is identify ""unknowledgeable" behavior".
Immanuel Can wrote:Ergo, as we continue this conversation, there are only two possibilities. Either you are not sincerely committed to cogito-type knowledge, or you are being inconsistent.
That's another false dichotomy. There is at least one more possibility, that I am committed to absolute knowledge as stated by Parmenides and Descartes, and that I am being consistent.
Immanuel Can wrote:Whether or not you are "comfortable" with such inconsistency would not be a philosophical issue. But your "knowledge" view would be philosophically irrational, then.
Get over it.
Actually, I'm not even mildly troubled by it. But then, I don't hold to the definition of "knowledge" you've specified, so I don't have to be. For I think inductive knowledge counts -- but you've pitched for the idea that "knowledge" = radical-doubt-type cogito knowledge, in which case inductive knowledge would not count as true knowledge for you.
Did you miss this?
uwot wrote:It's called induction. If any information comes to my attention that you are not really there, I shall adjust my behaviour accordingly.
Immanuel Can wrote:A question:

I wrote: "There is no God" can imply: namely that you "know" it by evidence from the external world, or you "know" it as an internal impression of your own. If you think there is a third possibility, feel free to add it.

You responded:
Well, it would have been, had you spotted it.
The thrust of this rapier move is lost on me here. :D

Are you saying you have a third option to offer, so you can prove my version 1-version 2 dichotomy is false? If you do, why not just offer it, and you'll have conclusively shown me wrong...a perfect rebuke!
As I keep saying: I know the difference between absolute, contingent and analytic knowledge.
Immanuel Can wrote:Oops. You don't have it! :wink:
The third option is that it is the conclusion of an argument with premises that are neither empirical, nor emotional, but analytic; at least if you take Aquinas, Descartes, Plantinga et al seriously. Still, if that's not an option by which of the two means you allow, do you conclude there is a god?
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

Immanuel Can wrote:"There is no God" can imply: namely that you "know" it by evidence from the external world, or you "know" it as an internal impression of your own. If you think there is a third possibility, feel free to add it.
In this case, it could be stated either that "there is no god," as you have done or that, "there is a god" where the rest equally applies. And while I totally agree that this: "that you "know" it by evidence from the external world," is possible, I see this: "you "know" it as an internal impression of your own," as impossible.

I see it that same as I saw a Gettier type thought experiment that attempted to challenge Justified True Belief, which is called the, "cow in the field." Basically the farmer wants to make sure that his cow in on the farm and OK, so he looks to the field, but there are hills and trees in it, and he sees a shape and color matching the head of his cow just over a small hill, such that he believes it is justified and true that the cow is just over the hill next to a tree, so he goes about his business. Later he cannot find his cow at all, but notices that from the angle he was at earlier it still looks like the cow is there.

The people that created this Gettier problem said that his initial belief was indeed justified true, and hence that there is a problem with JTB as the truth giver. But I totally disagree! I see that the farmers belief was not justified true, in that initial moment he believed it was. I see that he took a short cut, and only walked into the field far enough, to see what he wanted to see not what he needed to see. He was simply too lazy to go further up the path, Garbage into the computation, garbage out of the computation.

And this is how humans use words to lie to themselves, whether they acknowledge it or not. That to say one '"knows" something as an internal impression of their own," is in fact the same type lie, Because it can never, in the strictest sense of the words, actually be considered justified true. Who knows why they seem to need to believe things in this haphazard way, but I'm sure it's deeply rooted in their subconscious, a trauma of some sort, or maybe fear or simply laziness. Only they might be able to say what it is one day, if they are ever capable of uncovering it.

Hindsight is always 20/20, it shows that we make mistakes. But the real trick is asking ourselves why we do so, and coming up with the actual answer. Of course one always feels safe believing in something that no one can actually '"know" by evidence from the external world,' Maybe they have a deep seated want to be the smartest kid on the block, and want to have something believed by many, that is improvable, to support that endeavor. I can't be sure. What do you think?

You may say that you think my reasoning is haphazard, that it's all over the place, and you can mean it or you can just say it. But I honestly believe that it's cohesive, and has much to do about the real problem at hand, sincerely!

So if you can't deal with my methodology, my understanding of humanity, that which I truly believe to be the current human condition, the construct of all our human ills that has come to it's current head. You're correct we cannot really talk to one another, minds eye to minds eye, because you see it as one thing and I another. I see it from the position that humans are actually killing themselves off, in spite of themselves, and that illuminates quite a bit about our actual capabilities, not the ones we necessarily want to "believe" about ourselves. I just think that we really have to get away from believing blindly. That science is the answer.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Is Jesus Christ a man or a god?

Post by Immanuel Can »

False dichotomy. I have said many times that to my mind, the most plausible explanation for all the phenomena that give the impression of an external world is an external world that is responsible for the phenomena. What I haven't done is identify ""unknowledgeable" behavior".
No, true dichotomy. You said "knowledge" is exemplified by Descartes cogito. I just said that if you believe that, then you have no "knowledge" (cogito-style) of anything else but your own thinking. And if you genuinely believed that was all "knowledge" was, you would have no access to the external world. That all follows perfectly.
That's another false dichotomy. There is at least one more possibility, that I am committed to absolute knowledge as stated by Parmenides and Descartes, and that I am being consistent.
No again. You can't be consistent with you belief in only cogito-style knowledge and be acting as though an external world exists. You have no (cogito-style) "knowledge" of it.
It's called induction. If any information comes to my attention that you are not really there, I shall adjust my behaviour accordingly.
No, I didn't miss it. But if what you say there is true, you do not believe the only "knowing" is cogito-style. You, like me, believe in induction too. In which case, you have to drop your obdurate insistence that you do not believe in things not proved to you cogito-style.
Still, if that's not an option by which of the two means you allow, do you conclude there is a god?
One could only know it two ways: inductively, from experience, and by revelation followed by deduction. Of course, one could have access to both too.
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