Why hasn't Ethics made more progress in today's world?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Ginkgo
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Re: Why hasn't Ethics made more progress in today's world?

Post by Ginkgo »

Immanuel Can wrote:
But you have already told us that ethics and legalism are the same.
Absolutely not. I never said that. The most I've said is that ethics are required for laws, which has nothing whatsoever to do with legalism.


Interesting?


"Actually all courts do is make judgement on moral issues."

You also tell us that judging actions is the most relevant aspect when it comes to ethics. Isn't that what the law does? Hmmm.. are you sure you are not subscribing too much to the letter of the law?

Based on the your wikipedia quote and the statements you have posted it seems as though you have come down on the side of legal ideas. At least to some extent.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why hasn't Ethics made more progress in today's world?

Post by Immanuel Can »

"Actually all courts do is make judgement on moral issues."
The quotation above refers to law, not legalism.

Notice the "-ism". It indicates that what precedes is a kind of ideology, just as it does in Marx-ism or Freudian-ism. Legalism is a theological position. The "Law" to which it refers is with a capital "L," that is, the Mosaic Law or similar Divinely given laws.

What human courts do is "law," small "l". It is those rules made up by people for provisional purposes or to reflect moral imperatives of some kind.

It is worth knowing the difference, if one is going to speak of "Law" in theology rather than simply the laws of human courts. While some laws may be derived from the Law (such as, for example, a prohibition against murder), sometimes law (the human kind) simply reflects human moral judgments.
Ginkgo
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Re: Why hasn't Ethics made more progress in today's world?

Post by Ginkgo »

Immanuel Can wrote:
"Actually all courts do is make judgement on moral issues."
The quotation above refers to law, not legalism.
Yes, I Irealize that. You were talking about courts as a means of authority at that particular point in the discussion. In what way would you have liked me to understand your use of "court" at that time?
Immanuel Can wrote: Notice the "-ism". It indicates that what precedes is a kind of ideology, just as it does in Marx-ism or Freudian-ism. Legalism is a theological position. The "Law" to which it refers is with a capital "L," that is, the Mosaic Law or similar Divinely given laws.
I see. So we curtailed that particular aspect of history? Moved on...so to speak.
Immanuel Can wrote: It is worth knowing the difference, if one is going to speak of "Law" in theology rather than simply the laws of human courts. While some laws may be derived from the Law (such as, for example, a prohibition against murder), sometimes law (the human kind) simply reflects human moral judgments.
Yes, I do know the difference because I did read your wikipedia quote. This is why it puzzles me as to why you claimed that the most important aspect of ethics is the judging of conduct.

Here is your wiki quote again in part:

Legalism, in Christian theology, is a usually pejorative[citation needed] term referring to an over-emphasis on discipline of conduct, or legal ideas, usually implying an allegation of misguided rigour, pride, superficiality, the neglect of mercy, and ignorance of the grace of God or emphasizing the letter of law at the expense of the spirit. Legalism is alleged against any view that obedience to law, not faith in God's grace, is the pre-eminent principle of redemption. On the Biblical viewpoint that redemption is not earned by works, but that obedient faith is required to enter and remain in the redeemed state, see Covenantal nomism.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why hasn't Ethics made more progress in today's world?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Yes, I do know the difference because I did read your wikipedia quote. This is why it puzzles me as to why you claimed that the most important aspect of ethics is the judging of conduct.
Judging conduct is, of course, what ethics is designed to do. Judging character is another thing it sometimes attempts to do, but it's not as good at doing it because character can only be judged on long-term patterns of behaviour -- or as Virtue Ethicists call them, "habits."

Ethics has other uses too, of course. One of them is establishing common laws to protect common interests and reflect human rights (a difficult concept for any secular ethics, to be sure).

But as you now note, "legalism" is not any of these. It's a theological position.

Are we on the same page now?
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GreatandWiseTrixie
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Re: Why hasn't Ethics made more progress in today's world?

Post by GreatandWiseTrixie »

Made a video about human ethics.

It should help further your understanding a bit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p__K42xs_Y
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why hasn't Ethics made more progress in today's world?

Post by Immanuel Can »

It's quiet..so quiet...

No authority for ethics.

In other words, no duty for any person to perform any ethical precept you may specify.

I'm still waiting, prof.
Ginkgo
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Re: Why hasn't Ethics made more progress in today's world?

Post by Ginkgo »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Yes, I do know the difference because I did read your wikipedia quote. This is why it puzzles me as to why you claimed that the most important aspect of ethics is the judging of conduct.
Judging conduct is, of course, what ethics is designed to do. Judging character is another thing it sometimes attempts to do, but it's not as good at doing it because character can only be judged on long-term patterns of behaviour -- or as Virtue Ethicists call them, "habits."

Ethics has other uses too, of course. One of them is establishing common laws to protect common interests and reflect human rights (a difficult concept for any secular ethics, to be sure).

But as you now note, "legalism" is not any of these. It's a theological position.

Are we on the same page now?
Probably since a lot of this inform has been provided by me.
Ginkgo
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Re: Why hasn't Ethics made more progress in today's world?

Post by Ginkgo »

IC,

You still didn't answer my question.

You have told us the most important aspect of ethics is the judging of conduct. This being the case then it is at odds with Legalism (theological). An overemphasis on judging conduct. You appear to be overemphasizing conduct. Please enlighten me.

In the same quote you advocate a functional approach to ethics. Isn't a functional approach a normative position? The separation of fact from value... perhaps?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why hasn't Ethics made more progress in today's world?

Post by Immanuel Can »

IC,

You still didn't answer my question.
I'm sorry...I'm not seeing that I'm not. Can you pose it again?
You have told us the most important aspect of ethics is the judging of conduct. This being the case then it is at odds with Legalism (theological). An overemphasis on judging conduct. You appear to be overemphasizing conduct. Please enlighten me.
Ah. I see the confusion.

We human beings look to ethics as a way of judging conduct...actions, in particular. Whether that is an overemphasis would have to be shown; but Virtue Ethics, with its focus on "character" is in an extremely weak position to do so, since specifying character is not, as Aristotle supposed, easy or uncontentious to do. So I think until further notice, we're safe to say that judging actions is ethics' primary purpose -- at least so far as we humans are concerned.

Very different is the matter of our actions with regard to God. We humans don't try to take our ethics from that, unless we happen to be Divine Command theorists or other kind of religious ethicists, obviously. Such ethicists think that there is an objective moral code to which human ethics must refer. Secular ethicists would, of course, deny that.

Legalism has no relationship or interest for secular human ethics. There, it is not wrong. Be a legalist if you want, or not if you don't. But legalism is wrong for Christian ethics. And anyone who thinks a Christian ethicist is counselling legalism would be wrong. For no Christian who understands Christianity aright imagines that doing good actions, however nice they may be in themselves, makes one acceptable to God, or meets the actual standard of His moral code. However, secular ethicists often *think* that's what Christian ethicists must be believing.

That is because they do not understand theology; and they do not understand theology because they think it's a lot of talk about nothing, so there's nothing *to* understand. Of course, they're wrong. But they think they're correct.
In the same quote you advocate a functional approach to ethics.
Absolutely not. Rather, I would say I describe secular ethics as a mad attempt to achieve functionality.

But I certainly don't believe that's the right way to go. It's just what they are forced to do by the logic of their own ontology. If there's no God and no teleology, who can tell us what "ethic" is right? For that matter, what does "right" even mean, then? So secularists are thrown back on function or nothing; but even functionalism doesn't save the day for them.

That's because all secular ethics are deeply incoherent. But hey, you don't have to take my word for it. A perfectly good explanation of the same was in PN, as outlined by Joel Marks a year or so ago. It's why he gave up being a Kantian. (You'll find that his ensuing option, "Desirism" is just as obvious a mess in this regard as the Kantianism he left, though.)

I just now note that there is also a new article in this month's PN, arguing the very same thing: that essentially, secular ethics is a dead dog. You might find it interesting too.
Ginkgo
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Re: Why hasn't Ethics made more progress in today's world?

Post by Ginkgo »

Immanuel Can wrote: This can by no means be taken for granted. Not everybody is very happy about the idea that you would say you can specify the content of character. In fact, it's highly contentious. Imagine, for example, if the school system wanted to grade or even record the "moral standing" of your children, or the "character content" of the households from which they come...Such a thing was suggested but rejected by policy makers with horror in the region where I live. So it's nowhere so easy as you suggest.

It's not clear that "based on character" is the right way to go. For example, we punish criminals for their actions, not based on their character. If we punished them based on character, we'd lock people up for "bad thoughts and attitudes" or to put it in a more Virtue Ethics way, for "bad habits." But it seems grossly unjust to prefer condemnation of character to judgment of action, especially in a world in which we find it almost impossible to specify "character." Did not Solon himself say, as Aristotle quoted in the start of The Nicomachean Ethics, the cardinal text of Virtue Ethics, "Call no man blessed [i.e. morally approved of the gods] until he's dead."

If "an entire life" (pace Aristotle and MacIntyre) is the span it takes for us to judge character, and if judging actions is not the relevant or moral thing to do, then we are left without any functional ethics at all.

I see. So based on the above quote you are only supporting a functional approach to ethics in a secular sense.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why hasn't Ethics made more progress in today's world?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Nope, not quite.

I'd say only this: secular ethics has nothing but functionalism as a hope for its legitimacy. And it fails at that, because it cannot logically justify one particular "function" over another.
Ginkgo
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Re: Why hasn't Ethics made more progress in today's world?

Post by Ginkgo »

Immanuel Can wrote:Nope, not quite.

I'd say only this: secular ethics has nothing but functionalism as a hope for its legitimacy. And it fails at that, because it cannot logically justify one particular "function" over another.
I see. Your Aristotle/McIntyre quote gives the impression that functionalism is the mot relevant aspect when it comes to morality. Instead, you are wanting to say that you are lending support towards a particular aspect of the argument and not making an overall judgement as to the true nature of ethics.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why hasn't Ethics made more progress in today's world?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Right. I'm not a proponent of secular ethics.

They don't work, and they can't be compelled by dint of any line of reasoning. The thing I like least about them, therefore, is that they can ordinarily only be compelled by force or propaganda, since they cannot be defended by any rational means or to an autonomous person. Force and propaganda are bad options for everyone, I believe.

I'm a Christian Theist, and my ethics follow that line.
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Arising_uk
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Re: WHY HASN’T ETHICS MADE MORE PROGRESS IN TODAY’S WORLD?

Post by Arising_uk »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Such as?
No problem.
Sorry, was unclear, I meant what authority do you propose?
Note the important adjective: "agreed upon." There is not general agreement on which place has the right to dictate morality, or why. Is the the clergy, the legal system, the individual, the UN, the nation, the voting public, aggrieved minorities, ethics scholars...or what?

Some other examples.

Two people -- one believes in consequentialism, another in deontology. Their views rationalize opposite actions. Who's right, and who says they are?

Two more people. One says "right actions" determine morality. Another says it's not actions but "good character" that determines morality. Who's right, and who says? ....
As as your examples show ethics and morals vary over cultures and time so I don't think there can be an absolute authority to decide such things, which is what I presume you propose or wish for. The best we can get is whatever appears reasonably and pragmatically acceptable to those at the time and as such I think all philosophy can do in this area is to point-out the possible approaches and any pitfalls from using them in the situation at hand. So no grand ethical theories anymore and I'm surprised people still keep trying as I'd have thought Kant's example enough of a lesson.
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