Ask a Christian Theist

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

thedoc
Posts: 6465
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by thedoc »

Systematic wrote:
Systematic wrote:
Why is it that only pastors get to talk during church?
thedoc wrote:I'm not sure which church you attend, but in the church I attend a lot of different people speak in church, the pastor does deliver a sermon, if that is what you are referring to, but then that is what she was hired to do.
Does this pastor ask questions or ask for other people's opinions during the sermon?

Sometimes, depending on the subject of the sermon. Sometimes the sermon is more of a lecture, sometimes it's congregation participation.

PS, it should be noted that at times, some members of the congregation feel no reservations about speaking out during the sermon, even when they are not called upon to do so. And so far no-one has been asked to leave because of it, usually it's funny and the rest of the congregation and the pastor laugh about it.
Last edited by thedoc on Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
thedoc
Posts: 6465
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by thedoc »

Systematic wrote:
Systematic wrote:
What right do men have to tell women what to do with their sexuality and womb?
thedoc wrote:Men don't have any right to tell a woman what to do with their womb, but they do have some say on what happens to what is sometimes in that womb. And contrary to popular opinion by some women, what is sometimes in the womb is not part of the woman's body, it's a separate individual within her body, and that woman has a responsibility to care for and protect that individual person.
I knew of a family where the father convinced his pubescent daughter to sleep with him, and he got her pregnant before anyone figured it out. Do you think that it is appropriate for someone to convince her that she should carry the baby to term?

I know that adultery and fornication has come to mean both men and women, but in the Bible it was usually about the women getting into trouble.

Note please, I didn't say that the parents should never have an abortion, I'm just arguing to call it what it is, and that is the ending of the life of another individual human being. You can call it whatever you want to ease your conscience, but I would call it murder.

The Bible was written at a time of a patriarchal society where women had few rights and were almost considered as property. Thus blame could more easily be laid on the woman, as they had few rights to begin with.
thedoc
Posts: 6465
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by thedoc »

Systematic wrote: I knew of a family where the father convinced his pubescent daughter to sleep with him, and he got her pregnant before anyone figured it out. Do you think that it is appropriate for someone to convince her that she should carry the baby to term?

In the town where I grew up there was a family on welfare, and the more children in the household, the more money they got. The father was having children to the daughters, thus more children and more money from welfare. Do I think it was appropriate, no, but then it wasn't my family and not my decision to make.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

See what I mean by "claims" yet?
Oh, yes...now I see. But you're surely disingenuous about wanting an answer, no?

After all, what you call my "claims" were actually answers to questions you posed yourself. And unless I mistake your initial implication (please feel free to correct it if it's wrong), these questions were not offered as discrete matters of interest to you, but rather volleyed at Yon Yalvin as a barrage of disjointed material intended to confirm your belief that Christians could not even answer such things, and hence Theists ought to be deeply disturbed about this perceived inability?

Did I misunderstand your intention?

Consequently, I responded in the same short way in which the questions were posed: with a one-line answer -- the purpose merely being to show that, far from being matters of deep perplexity, the questions in question were rather...easy...for any Christian to answer, and could be dispatched in just the sort of perfunctory manner in which they were offered. So that your implication that Christians could be dispatched with such superficial stuff was simply unnecessary at best, and at worst, naïve.

But nowhere did I promise that you would like my answers. Nor do I feel it necessary that you should, unless perchance you actually entertain the possibility of an answer.

So please correct me: were you actually earnestly worried about any of these items you listed in such haphazard haste? Or was your care merely to dismiss? Or are you personally invested -- worried perhaps -- by any of the items you listed?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

I knew of a family where the father convinced his pubescent daughter to sleep with him, and he got her pregnant before anyone figured it out. Do you think that it is appropriate for someone to convince her that she should carry the baby to term?
There are surely two separate acts here, and two separate questions, and three issues to consider.

One is obviously the behavior of the father, which we would all condemn as disgusting, immoral, vile, base and deserving of every reasonable punishment and condemnation...surely we all would.

But the second question is whether it is right to kill a baby. That is a totally different question, especially from the perspective of the potential humanity of the baby. A child cannot help that the circumstances under which he/she was produced were unsavoury. Such people we used to deplore as "bastards": but we're far more enlightened now, are we not? But if so, the manner of their conception is not a relevant adjudicator of their value as persons.

The third issue is of what should be done for the girl. Charges against her father cannot compensate her for the injury done her. Yet they should be tendered, of course. Is there *anything* that we could do that could make this right for the girl? I think not: whatever we do, she is deeply wounded and traumatized, and she will likely spend the rest of her life coming to grips with how she has been mistreated.

Will she be helped if we butcher her baby? It's hard to see how. In addition to the trauma of rape we will add the trauma of abortion...of having been forced to murder her firstborn. Will she walk away from such an experience unscathed? Or will we revictimize her, in addition to creating a new victim, her murdered unborn child?

Will she be better if we assist her in bringing the baby to term and putting it up for adoption? That too would be hard, and differently hard. But she might at least console herself that when her father behaved like a wretched coward she did not. She courageously refused to victimize another for her own self-interest, and in so doing proved herself a far better person than her father. That thought might carry her some distance.

I think she should at least be offered the chance to do the right thing. She might not have the courage to do it, but maybe she would. And it might be the best of a bad deal for her, and a very good thing for her son or daughter.

In any case, I do not think that coercing her into an abortion is a moral choice, and that is precisely what many people would advocate. They would not suggest there was anything else she could do, and they would not wish to see her take any such option. Yet in so doing, they'd really take away her freedom of choice (again), and become in their own way allies of the girl's father -- treating yet another innocent child as a disposable commodity.

I'm going to say that's wrong.
User avatar
ReliStuPhD
Posts: 627
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:28 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by ReliStuPhD »

Immanuel Can wrote:...Will she be helped if we butcher her baby? It's hard to see how. In addition to the trauma of rape we will add the trauma of abortion...of having been forced to murder her firstborn. Will she walk away from such an experience unscathed? Or will we revictimize her, in addition to creating a new victim, her murdered unborn child?...
I wonder if your use of the word "murder" and "butcher" here and elsewhere isn't begging the question. Or perhaps the so-called Mind Projection Fallacy? (Though the general thrust of your argument follows quite well.)
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

I wonder if your use of the word "murder" and "butcher" here and elsewhere isn't begging the question.
Is it? Maybe. Or is it begging the question to act as though there is no moral language appropriate to the discussion save that of "choice"? Maybe the thing we really need to do is bring back accurately descriptive language to an action that has been deliberately drained of specific referents by the side determined to recast the whole debate neutral and devoid of moral weight. I think we do.

After all, if it is a baby we're talking about, and if the action is abortion, then the words I chose were merely accurate. If, however, it were merely a "cluster of cells," then "terminate" and "dissect and vacuum out" would be sufficiently descriptive. But I see no a priori reason to prefer the bloodless language over language that reinstates the proper moral weight on the action in question.
User avatar
ReliStuPhD
Posts: 627
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:28 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by ReliStuPhD »

Immanuel Can wrote:
I wonder if your use of the word "murder" and "butcher" here and elsewhere isn't begging the question.
Is it? Maybe. Or is it begging the question to act as though there is no moral language appropriate to the discussion save that of "choice"? Maybe the thing we really need to do is bring back accurately descriptive language to an action that has been deliberately drained of specific referents by the side determined to recast the whole debate neutral and devoid of moral weight. I think we do.

After all, if it is a baby we're talking about, and if the action is abortion, then the words I chose were merely accurate. If, however, it were merely a "cluster of cells," then "terminate" and "dissect and vacuum out" would be sufficiently descriptive. But I see no a priori reason to prefer the bloodless language over language that reinstates the proper moral weight on the action in question.
But whence your definition of "murder?" Murder, by definition, is unlawful killing, and abortion, by legal definition (at least is the U.S.), is not unlawful. What's more, you refer to "bloodless language," but I fail to see where "abortion" is bloodless. It strikes me as a descriptive term that only a fool would take to be "bloodless." And as for "choice," that is certainly an element, is it not? You obviously consider choice on the part of the women to be of lesser moral "strength" than that of the life of the child, but that does not change the fact that you're dealing with a situation that is, at a minimum, terribly complex with any numbers of variables that are betrayed by the use of the word "murder." Even your proposed choice between "baby" and "cluster of cells" raises logical and metaphysical questions that are, at least here, unsettled. So yes, it is question-begging. You may consider that to be a risk you're willing to take, but it would undermine your credibility elsewhere if, on a topic about which someone else feels passionately while you do not, you were to raise objections that you yourself appear to dismiss here. If naturalistic fallacies are things we find objectionable in rational debate, then surely moralistic fallacies are as well.

I am certainly OK with you expressing moral disapproval with abortion, but in a forum such as this, it seems to me that such expressions should be sidebars while the actual argument avoids fallacies as much as possible. You may, of course, disagree, but it would then seem to me that, at least on this point, any claims you might make to your ability to engage in rational debate concerning the subject would be suspect. Or at least that's how it appears to me.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

Well, to begin with, I should point out that your assumption that "murder" is merely a legal term is incorrect -- or rather, only half correct. It is sometimes a legal term, yes; but it is also always a moral term, a universal term. If it were not, then we could never accuse any government of "murdering" its own citizens, since their laws would not designate what they had done as "murder." Yet we do so accuse, and we feel we have good reason to do so.
What's more, you refer to "bloodless language," but I fail to see where "abortion" is bloodless. It strikes me as a descriptive term that only a fool would take to be "bloodless."
You and I are agreeing on that. Nevertheless, you will note that most public discussion of abortion prefers the bloodless language of "terminate" and "evacuate" over the accurate, descriptive language. And I think that that is because even to describe such an action accurately, biologically, frankly, is to induce horror in any moral human being. The only way the action can be rendered thinkable is in the bloodless terms, so the pro-abortion side opts for the bloodless.

We have both seen this linguistic strategy used before. This sort of downgrading of accurate description is quite typical of propaganda techniques, wherein the driving of people out of their villages is called something like "resettlement of populations," or the murder of six million is called "the solution to a problem." The propagandist converts the reprehensible truth to innocuous terms so it seems unobjectionable. So then it seems to become an "open question," an "option" a "reasonable alternative," whereas the moral situation is not actually unclear at all: something hideous is being excused.
You obviously consider choice on the part of the women to be of lesser moral "strength" than that of the life of the child,
No. I don't consider that "choice" is the real issue at all. That's downgraded language. The real issue is whether you can solve a problem by slicing up and vacuuming away a child.

It also plays into the strengths of the propagandist. For they wish you to think that you have some sort of a trade-off here, rather than two distinct morally-laden situations. The trade-off is used to extenuate the hideous action by means of the claim that unless the hideous action is committed, some other ill will necessarily be involved.

But THAT is really question begging. For "choice" is not the issue. Women have many choices, at many times in the course of life, and of a potential and actual pregnancy. The question is whether killing their child is reducible (by bloodless language) to a mere "choice," and whether that is some sort of necessity.

Now, before you (perhaps) jump on me for saying it's a child at all, remember that at some point every reasonable person is in agreement that it is. One second after the last toe leaves the mother's womb, any moral person knows it is a child. But what about one second earlier? Three seconds before that? And so on. Even if you think that at some point a child in the womb is not a child, it's very clear to everyone that at some point it is. Hence, the term murder is quite warranted.

The real question, then, is "When is it right to kill a child?"

[Now, there are a few people who try the "it's not a baby until it is socially-contributing," but I think we can see that that is both an excessively uninformative definition and an outrageously dangerous one. For it entail that they child was valuable only for its utility, and hence people without the specified utility would be said to have no value, no rights, no humanity. So I don't think such a definition can be rationally defended or morally sustained, and I have no thought that you would advocate it.]
Even your proposed choice between "baby" and "cluster of cells" raises logical and metaphysical questions that are, at least here, unsettled. So yes, it is question-begging.

Were you labouring under the delusion I invented these terms? These are the chosen terms of the pro-life and pro-abortion sides respectively. I am merely repeating their language. I am not saying I agree with their language. But what language am I to use? For the pro-choice side would have us describe nothing accurately.

Now, a few minutes ago you were indicting me for using bloodless language. But this is the language of the pro-abortion side, and they would insist upon us conducting the debate in those terms. They would say we should be speaking of "cluster of cells," "termination," "choice," "access," "evacuation," and "right to one's own body," for example. No babies. No blood. No sadness. No pain. No loss. No death. And no *other* choice.

And this is why the pro-abortion side does NOT want women informed. They do NOT want women to consider the moral implications of killing the same child which, under other circumstances, they would hail as a blessing. They do NOT want women to see what their in-utero child looks like. They do not want them to hear its heart beat. They do NOT want them to consider adoption. They do not want to help them take a different route. They want them to feel completely morally uninhibited about killing their unborn children, and getting that to happen means limiting their access to information, practical and moral, and their rational consideration of alternatives.

Now, THAT, I would submit to you, is truly question-begging.
User avatar
ReliStuPhD
Posts: 627
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:28 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by ReliStuPhD »

I think we'll just have to disagree here. In service of a particular argument, you introduced a second argument through the use of charged language. Just as you object to the use of 'sanitized' language, so also do I object to the use of 'charged' language. You may well appeal to 'murder' as moral point, but we've not even settled that abortion constitutes murder on those grounds. You certainly think so. I do not.

Wherever this rabbit hole leads, my initial point stands: in the context of rational debate (which I assume is what you were engaged in) it is question-begging to introduce language intended to support the final conclusion when that language itself rests on a particular set of assumptions that have not been demonstrated to hold. That is to say, if abortion is murder, then certainly abortion is immoral, but you have not demonstrated that abortion is murder, hence question-begging. And even if you had, it would still be an ancillary argument to the one you were making, so hardly useful in keeping focus on that point.

You may find this to be perfectly acceptable in the context of rational debate. I do not. If, however, we're just knocking around personal views here, then have at it. I'm going to bow out.
thedoc
Posts: 6465
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by thedoc »

The point of the abortion issue is 'when does the fetus become a Human being? Obviously after conception, but when? Once this is agreed on, or not, the question of taking the life can be addressed as to exactly what is happening, murder or not. Some people believe that at the moment of conception we have a human life, and I have actually talked to a person who believed that the baby wasn't 'alive' till it took it's first breath after birth. 2 extreme positions, but most would argue for somewhere in between.
thedoc
Posts: 6465
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by thedoc »

Immanuel Can wrote: [Now, there are a few people who try the "it's not a baby until it is socially-contributing," but I think we can see that that is both an excessively uninformative definition and an outrageously dangerous one. For it entail that they child was valuable only for its utility, and hence people without the specified utility would be said to have no value, no rights, no humanity. So I don't think such a definition can be rationally defended or morally sustained, and I have no thought that you would advocate it.]

This is indeed a slippery slope to start debating, what is a social contribution? For some the pregnancy contributes to the family unit and adds to that family. Is that enough to count as a social contribution?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

The point of the abortion issue is 'when does the fetus become a Human being? Obviously after conception, but when? Once this is agreed on, or not, the question of taking the life can be addressed as to exactly what is happening, murder or not. Some people believe that at the moment of conception we have a human life, and I have actually talked to a person who believed that the baby wasn't 'alive' till it took it's first breath after birth. 2 extreme positions, but most would argue for somewhere in between.
This is wisely said. "Somewhere in between" indeed. By the time the child is born, no person is in doubt about his/her humanity. And on the other end, there must be some time...say pre-zygote, when the entity in question is not quite a human being. I concede your point.

At the same time, you have astutely shed light on the solution. For the "in-between" view puts the burden-to-prove squarely where it should be: on the person who is advocating "terminating" a life. For a person who is opposed to such a deed is not in danger of committing anything morally reprehensible, but the person who is advocating it potentially is. So unless it can be shown decisively that a "baby" is not involved, the judicious and moral course is not to kill that entity.

It is like when you're out hunting game, and something rustles in the bushes. If you shoot without knowing it's fair game, you could kill your hunting buddy. If you do not shoot, you're in no danger of killing anyone. That makes the situation quite morally clear. Thank you for that insight.

However, ReliStuPhD is right...another strand might be where to work this issue out. This is clearly not the place. So I accept his rebuke for getting off topic and willingly return to the track of the original subject of positing.
thedoc
Posts: 6465
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by thedoc »

Immanuel Can wrote:
The point of the abortion issue is 'when does the fetus become a Human being? Obviously after conception, but when? Once this is agreed on, or not, the question of taking the life can be addressed as to exactly what is happening, murder or not. Some people believe that at the moment of conception we have a human life, and I have actually talked to a person who believed that the baby wasn't 'alive' till it took it's first breath after birth. 2 extreme positions, but most would argue for somewhere in between.
This is wisely said. "Somewhere in between" indeed. By the time the child is born, no person is in doubt about his/her humanity. And on the other end, there must be some time...say pre-zygote, when the entity in question is not quite a human being. I concede your point.

At the same time, you have astutely shed light on the solution. For the "in-between" view puts the burden-to-prove squarely where it should be: on the person who is advocating "terminating" a life. For a person who is opposed to such a deed is not in danger of committing anything morally reprehensible, but the person who is advocating it potentially is. So unless it can be shown decisively that a "baby" is not involved, the judicious and moral course is not to kill that entity.

It is like when you're out hunting game, and something rustles in the bushes. If you shoot without knowing it's fair game, you could kill your hunting buddy. If you do not shoot, you're in no danger of killing anyone. That makes the situation quite morally clear. Thank you for that insight.

However, ReliStuPhD is right...another strand might be where to work this issue out. This is clearly not the place. So I accept his rebuke for getting off topic and willingly return to the track of the original subject of positing.

To a point I might agree that another thread might be appropriate, but then in the OP the offer was made to ask "If you ever wanted to ask a self-styled philosopher, Calvinist, Christian, or theist anything this thread is your chance", which pretty much seems that he is open to any question we might wish to pose to him. I suppose I'm just a bit disappointed that the Original Poster isn't part of this discussion.

Oh, and thankyou for calling me wise, sometimes even the blind squirrel finds an acorn.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Ask a Christian Theist

Post by Immanuel Can »

I suppose I'm just a bit disappointed that the Original Poster isn't part of this discussion.
Yes, I am too. He seems to have disappeared.
Post Reply