BLAME

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Timothy Loehmann was a loose cannon and should never have been accepted into the police force anyway. The police force over there seems to be full of trigger-happy thugs.

[SpheresOfBalance]

You are on the side of making stuff up and stating it as fact to support racism, dude. Like so many other Republicans.

Not made up. I oppose racism, there is only one race, "the human race." And I'm a Democrat!

Three strikes, and you're out!

But keep on guessing, I'm sure you'll get something right sooner or later!

[mickthinks]

Not made up.

Yes, made up. It isn't true that in almost every situation in which an African American with a fake or BB gun was shot, he had refused to drop the weapon, SoB. You've made that up.


I oppose racism, there is only one race, "the human race."
Such a belief does not make you immune to racist attitudes and actions.
And I'm a Democrat!
Then you have no excuse.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Not made up.

Yes, made up. It isn't true that in almost every situation in which an African American with a fake or BB gun was shot, he had refused to drop the weapon, SoB. You've made that up.
Again you're incessant, putting words in my mouth, you're as desperate as the veggie. See many demons lately?

Of the recent occurrences of black people with gun shapes in their possession, the story by the video and officers testimony, indicate that they were told to drop their weapon, and didn't.

Oh I forgot, this shall be lost on you due to your clairvoyance. Go ahead tell me what really happened, oh Mighty Quinn, seer of the future, over thousands of miles, and through walls, transcending time itself!

You're a fool, I simply listened to the news. You should try it, it really works!

I oppose racism, there is only one race, "the human race."
Such a belief does not make you immune to racist attitudes and actions.
Oh but it does? Well at least in my particular case, as I speak for myself, so should you, speak for yourself. I have never conveyed such deviation on this forum. Only ones confusion would spell out such things, in the slow mind of preconceived notions, as they swing at a windmill.

And I'm a Democrat!
Then you have no excuse.
No, you're fighting windmills! What next, did you witness me stringing up black people, wearing a white pointy hood?. Was I the real cause of the holocaust? Don't tell me, I'm Satan, right? Well you should know, or so you keep saying.

I can't believe how messed up some people can be.
Reference where you lost it, and I'll lead you by the hand!

Quote my words that led you astray, that you believe match the images in your mind.

It's up to you!

[mickthinks]

Of the recent occurrences of black people with gun shapes in their possession, the story by the video and officers testimony, indicate that they were told to drop their weapon, and didn't.

If these videos are not figments of your imagination, SoB, then you will be able to provide some links to some of them. Please do, because I haven't seen any videos of African Americans being shot after failing to drop the fake or BB guns they were holding when ordered by the police, and given a chance, to do so.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Of the recent occurrences of black people with gun shapes in their possession, the story by the video and officers testimony, indicate that they were told to drop their weapon, and didn't.

If these videos are not figments of your imagination, SoB, then you will be able to provide some links to some of them. Please do, because I haven't seen any videos of African Americans being shot after failing to drop the fake or BB guns they were holding when ordered by the police, and given a chance, to do so.

So then this is a case of us having two different sources of information, understood. Sorry for any less than cordial attitudes, associated with such, applied assumption under those circumstances. As I've said a lot of what I got was from the news, as in TV. And no, I'm not so electronically advanced, as to digitally record everything I see on TV news, it's really not that important to me, you? And some were links that were posted in this thread, I believe. While others were due to searches I initiated. To be quite frank, I'm too lazy to help people with such things. I believe that it's their responsibility to ensure they know the subject matter.

The instances I refer to, I believe only amount to 3 or 4. One started it off for us. It was the one in Ferguson Missouri. According to police Brown grabbed for the officers gun. Look it up!

Another was in Beavercreek OH., involving a BB/pellet rifle at a Walmart. Police say he was told to put it down, and when he did not comply, they opened fire. I've seen the Walmart video, and what he was doing was indeed unusual, very strange. Since there is no audio, one cannot be sure whether he was or was not told to drop the weapon, though it seems he was not paying attention, in either case. From his posturing, though, it would seem he did not deserve to be shot.

The Tamir Rice video is grainy and pixilated, because of it's lower resolution, but more importantly, it's at a very slow frame rate. What this means is that it's actually more of a stop motion film, than one that can show real time occurrences, without missing a few. Did he point the gun at officers, we may never know for sure, as frames required to actually clue us in were never grabbed in the first place. This is one of the problems with surveillance cameras. Often the owner has to choose between details via a high frame rate/resolution, and limited storage. I prefer details, and have mine set up at 30 frames/second, at a rather high resolution. From the frames that are actually present, it doesn't seem to indicate he threatened police, but it would require additional frames to know for sure.

Again, I'm on the side of true justice, who ever it serves.

Here in the US what Brown was actually accused of, in those moments just prior to him being shot, is a very common problem. They, mostly blacks, though I have seen whites infrequently do it, challenge the road safety laws, walking in the streets when sidewalks are clearly available. It's done by dissidents, "challenging the man," and it's fucking ridiculous. Those laws are put in place for "EVERYONE'S" safety, blacks or the poor are not being singled out. In Japan, if any pedestrian is hit by a car in the streets, it is automatically the fault of the pedestrian. And so it should be! Unless of course there are extenuating circumstances for a pedestrian being in the street, that would have otherwise threatened his life even more so.

Is this clear enough for you, or are you still wanting to fight windmills?

And of course, under some of these circumstances, it is hard to place blame, at least accurately, certainly.

[mickthinks]

One started it off for us. It was the one in Ferguson Missouri. According to police Brown grabbed for the officers gun.

Dude, are you seriously claiming that, in the incident in which Michael Brown was shot dead by Darren Wilson, it is known that Brown was holding a BB gun and Wilson ordered him to drop it and that Brown failed to do so?

1. Brown was not holding a BB gun
2. Wilson did not order him to drop the fake gun
3. Brown did not fail to drop the fake gun he was holding.

Let me remind you of the claim you made that I asked you to provide case evidence to support;

"... the blacks in almost every situation, refused to drop the weapon, whether fake or not." (from this post.)

Setting aside, for now, the questions about Wilson's actions, judgment, and testimony, Michael Brown is not an example of a black with a BB gun being shot after refusing to drop the weapon. Agreed?

[SpheresOfBalance]

One started it off for us. It was the one in Ferguson Missouri. According to police Brown grabbed for the officers gun.

Dude, are you seriously claiming in that the incident in which Michael Brown was shot dead by Darren Wilson, it is known that Brown was holding a BB gun and Wilson ordered him to drop it and that Brown failed to do so?

1. Brown was not holding a BB gun
2. Wilson did not order him to drop the fake gun
3. Brown did not fail to drop the fake gun he was holding.

Let me remind you of the claim you made that I asked you to provide case evidence to support;

"... the blacks in almost every situation, refused to drop the weapon, whether fake or not." (from this post.)

Michael Brown is not an example of a black with a BB gun being shot after refusing to drop the weapon. Agreed?

You are fighting windmills, aren't you, got a woody for me or something? I never did say Brown was holding a gun shape. In the beginning I said that I seriously wanted to be on the side of the blacks in these cases, but that I kept finding reasons to not be sure, that I could be. While you have consistently tried to put words in my mouth, to funnel the argument in such a way that you can be right, i.e., fighting windmills, "because you have a hardon for me?"

You need to go back and read all my inputs in this matter, to understand my position. FYI, when I mentioned cases of firearm shapes, of course I meant the ones in which it applied. Maybe you're looking for a good fight. Well the one with me is in your imagination, because I'm always on the side of the underdog, if it can clearly be established, which one that is. And that's my rub, "certainty!" You'll never see me fighting windmills!

So as to the topic at hand, as I've said, 'sometimes blame can be very hard to establish.'

[mickthinks]

In the beginning I said that I seriously wanted to be on the side of the blacks in these cases, but that I kept finding reasons to not be sure, that I could be.

Yes, SoB, and one such reason you gave was that, when unarmed African Americans with BB guns are shot dead by police officers, it is because in almost every situation they refused to drop the fake weapon.

I don't believe that is true; I don't believe you have "found" it to be true; I don't believe there is anything like sufficient evidence of it for you to find.

I never did say Brown was holding a gun shape.

If you knew all along that unarmed Brown was not carrying a fake gun when he was shot dead by Officer Wilson, why did you offer this as your first example of an unarmed African American with a BB gun being shot dead because he refused to drop the fake weapon? Did you think I wouldn't notice?

Moving on to your second attempt to provide an example of an African American with a BB gun being shot dead because he refused to drop it: "Another was in Beavercreek OH., involving a BB/pellet rifle at a Walmart", by which I guess you mean the shooting of John Crawford. The store security video of that incident is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9FtNOV ... verified=1

I don't believe anyone who watches that video will believe that Crawford was given a chance to put the BB gun down before he was fatally shot by Sean Williams. You yourself say that you could not be sure Crawford had been warned and refused to drop the weapon.

Can we agree that your conviction that "blacks in almost every situation refused to drop the weapon" is not based on the John Crawford killing either?

[SpheresOfBalance]

In the beginning I said that I seriously wanted to be on the side of the blacks in these cases, but that I kept finding reasons to not be sure, that I could be.

Yes, SoB, and one such reason you gave was that, when unarmed African Americans with BB guns are shot dead by police officers, it is because in almost every situation they refused to drop the fake weapon.

I don't believe that is true; I don't believe you have "found" it to be true; I don't believe there is anything like sufficient evidence of it for you to find.

Come on Mick, buddy, you know very well what they say to a jury in a court of law, "...beyond a reasonable doubt!"

I never did say Brown was holding a gun shape.

If you knew all along that unarmed Brown was not carrying a fake gun when he was shot dead by Officer Wilson, why did you offer this as your first example of an unarmed African American with a BB gun being shot dead because he refused to drop the fake weapon? Did you think I wouldn't notice?
No, you're confused, that was me pointing to the specific instances, to which i referred, as the recent rash, I spoke of.


Moving on to your second attempt to provide an example of an African American with a BB gun being shot dead because he refused to drop it: "Another was in Beavercreek OH., involving a BB/pellet rifle at a Walmart", by which I guess you mean the shooting of John Crawford. The store security video of that incident is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9FtNOV ... verified=1

I don't believe anyone who watches that video will believe that Crawford was given a chance to put the BB gun down before he was fatally shot by Sean Williams. You yourself say that you could not be sure Crawford had been warned and refused to drop the weapon.
As I said, I've already seen that video. That is true, I said that. One cannot be sure, though it would surely seem that he was not given the choice. I just can't say for certain. It certainly would appear that he never heard them saying anything. But I'd have to be there to know for sure, unless there had been discernible audio.


Can we agree that your conviction that "blacks in almost every situation refused to drop the weapon" is not based on the John Crawford killing either?
You're forgetting something here. We have video with no audio. The officers said they told him to drop it, and they may have. And that is what I based my opinion on initially. With no evidence to the contrary, which way should one lean? I'm sure in such cases the officers are asked to take a polygraph. I'd even so so far as to recommend they take an FMRI. Together, one could be reasonably certain if the officers were lying or not.

I sure the hell couldn't/wouldn't do as a job, what police officers do.

So what's this more about, you and I, or people possibly being killed for no good reason, in the light of today's increased fear?

[mickthinks]

The officers said they told him to drop it, and they may have. And that is what I based my opinion on initially. ... With no evidence to the contrary, which way should one lean?

But the video, even without audio, is clear evidence that the officers (whatever they may have shouted as they opened fire) did not give Crawford a chance to drop the fake gun he was holding. So, even if you formed your opinion that the police cannot be blamed for shooting him dead before you saw the video, by the time you voiced that opinion here, you had seen the video and should have concluded that Crawford's case was not sufficient evidence for your claim.

You have shown yourself unable to provide any plausible evidence for your claim that the many unarmed African Americans who have been shot dead by US police officers have all, or even mostly, made the officers fear being shot by fake weapons that look real. It's a view that excuses unjustifiable police violence against African Americans and helps to perpetuate the injustice they have to suffer. Which makes it a racist view.



Mick: If you knew all along that unarmed Brown was not carrying a fake gun when he was shot dead by Officer Wilson, why did you offer this as your first example of an unarmed African American with a BB gun being shot dead because he refused to drop the fake weapon?
SoB: No, you're confused, that was me pointing to the specific instances, to which i referred, as the recent rash, I spoke of.

Exactly so! Dude, your testimony is certainly, and perhaps deliberately, incoherent and confusing. The "recent rash" you spoke of (here) was supposed to be of cases of unarmed African Americans with BB guns being shot dead when they refused to drop the fake weapons.

I sure the hell couldn't/wouldn't do as a job, what police officers do.
Which is no justification for police racist brutality (as a philosopher with your abilities does not need reminding, SoB) and thus serves only to cloud the issue and create further unnecessary confusion.

[SpheresOfBalance]

And yes I do [only report what it is, that I see]! How dare you speak for my eyes ...

You report what you claim that you see, SoB, but anyone who examines the evidence you have provided can see for themselves that you haven't seen what you claim to have seen. You haven't seen many cases of African Americans carrying BB (or otherwise fake) guns being shot dead by the police because they refused to put the fake gun down when ordered to do so.

If you had any genuine evidence, you would not have tried to pass off the cases of Michael Brown, John Crawford and Tamir Rice as examples of what you claim to have seen.

You seem to be making this more about you and I than the topic at hand. That you claim to be able to read my mind shows that you really don't deserve my attention. It would seem that philosophy escapes you. Because if you understood it you'd realize that at 57 years I have many instances of such behavior by blacks to warrant my resolve. Again, "WHEN I SPOKE OF THEM BEING TOLD TO PUT IT DOWN AND THEM NOT DOING SO, I SPOKE OF THOSE INSTANCES IN WHICH IT WERE TRUE. And, "THE CASES OF MICHAEL BROWN, JOHN CRAWFORD AND TAMIR RICE WERE EXAMPLES OF THOSE INSTANCES OF THE RECENT "RASH" OF SUCH THINGS, THAT THIS THREAD ADDRESS', THAT I WAS REFERRING TOO, NOT THAT THEY NECESSARILY WERE INSTANCES OF ONE BEING TOLD TO DROP THEIR WEAPON"

Did you get it this time or are you going to ignore my words yet again, and tell me what my meaning was? Stop making it about you and I, and pay attention, for a change.

"Many" blacks in this country have a "down with the man attitude," that's a fact. So in some instances, the militant ones, not of Martin Luther Kings resolve, but rather Malcolm X's resolve, challenge authority (police) and they are killed, usually by their weapon of choice. Have you ever heard "Gangsta Rap?"

I'm not saying that in every situation the police are right in their split second decisions, where their fear is front and center, hell no. I saw them "CLEARLY" being wrong in in the Rodney King video, as they beat an unarmed man while he was on the ground, his hands up trying to protect himself. In that case the police were "definitely" to "blame." I'm not sure about the man that was killed from suffocation as he was wrestled to the ground, he was a very big man, and the excess force that resulted in his death, could have simply been an accident of applying too much force on a softer spot, his throat, in the fray of trying to apprehend a big strong uncooperative person. Was it a shame? Hell yes it was! In some cases the video evidence is not clear enough to enable one to place "blame" properly.

I would certainly hope the police would not lie, but I'm sure their fear might cause them to, in the face of their mistake, due to their fear of having their life, as they know it, coming to an end. Their job is an extremely tough one, that one would have to experience to fully understand. I sure the hell wouldn't want it! Would you?