Can time be infinite?

[SpheresOfBalance]

We're just too young to prove it, if in fact, it can ever be done.

Jesus.
Try and read a fucking book sometime. Your objections are complete bullshit.
Relativity is demonstrable.
You are about 100 years out of date.

You're wrong, son. Just another clone of another mans thinking.

I'll ask you again, how could anyone truly know that it wasn't just the clock that was affected instead of time? They can't son, as time is not directly observable.

People smarter than you did the experiment.
Yet it's impossible for you to know this to be true. So then we get to the crux of your problem. You assume those people are smarter than you, so you just go with their flow. Like I said, a parrot, simply a clone, that does not think, simply mimics, because they just gotta be smarter than you, huh? To me that's not learning, that's simply memorization, to understand the dynamics of a situation is key to actually learning.

Do you really think they used a wind up clock.
Do you really think that windup clocks are the only things affected by the four 'known' forces? Remember that gravity is in fact stated as that which affects time, by those that conducted the experiments. You do you realize that gravity's affect differs with proximity, right? Remember we're talking nanoseconds, here, then there are the earths magnetic lines of flux, especially considering an east to west/west to east heading. Was that relative to the true or magnetic Cardinal headings? Seeing as how metal crossing the earths magnetic lines of flux perpendicularly create more of an electromagnetic disturbance than north to south/south to north, with a magnetic cardinal heading, of course.

What in your fetid imagination could affect a clock alone: consistently, repeatedly.
I see you're having a problem with your 'fetid' knowledge, or maybe brain, either way. You just keep on swallowing, hook, line and sinker. Don't think, heaven forbid you ever think, as that would clue you in that it's "IMPOSSIBLE" for the scientists to "know" conclusively, that in fact it was time that was changed, and not merely there clocks.

Nano=10-9 or 0.000000001 .<- this would be 1 billionth of a second. During the aircraft tests the max difference was 273 billionths of a second.

What was used, a barometric or radar altimeter, to verify their altitude? Altitude fluctuations is the norm with respect to flying, resulting in varying gravitational pull.
Did they record their speed, was that air or ground speed. Remember that the earth turns in one direction. Was it the clocks inertial speed that caused the difference, or the speed at which the clock broke through the earths magnetic lines of flux. How about the earths magnetosphere as it bends and contorts depending upon the strength of the solar winds. How about the affects of eddy currents induced in the airframe as the aircraft flew through the air and magnetic lines of flux? Were the clocks identical? How identical? Were each clocks power sources self contained, or were different sources utilized? How about sunspot activity those days? Do you know any of the specifics of how the experiments were conducted at all? What all was considered, such that controls were put into place. There are far too many variables here on earth as they would perform their tests, for them all to be compensated for, such that it could be considered conclusive.

I say that further testing is in order, that specifically one should be conducted on the upcoming mars mission, before I'll see it as anything possibly 'closer' to being conclusive. One in route and one utilizing the surface of mars and a craft in it's orbit. Yet there could be a fifth, sixth or more fundamental force as yet to be realized, that might come into play. Even then as I've said, one can't know necessarily conclusively whether it's time being changed or simply the type clock in question. The problem is, everything deals in some way with electromagnetic energy, and it's known that electromagnetic energy interferes with itself in some minute fractional way in any case other than it's parallel movement. Crap even CERN utilizes a circular conduit, where electromagnetic energy is applied to keep the particles centered/contained within the conduit. How can anyone believe that the magnetic energy to keep them contained/centered in no other way affects them? We are changing their nature, as they naturally travel in a straight line, in a vacuum. Isn't that also how they get the particles up to speed before the collision? If my memory serves me?

Name one experiment conducted that you actually understand, to it's fullest extent, such that you can actually say that "YOU" 'know' for 'yourself' and are not simply taking the word of someone you presume knows more that you do. Then tell me why you believe so.

[uwot]

What in your fetid imagination could affect a clock alone: consistently, repeatedly.

I see you're having a problem with your 'fetid' knowledge, or maybe brain, either way.

Now, now boys; play nicely. If you want to know why clocks, and everything slow down in the Special Relativity style, look no further than my very own blog. This will explain it all: https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogI ... c=postname If that doesn't make it clear to you, I will gladly clarify.
I haven't got round to time dilation as expressed by General Relativity, but I will eventually.

[SpheresOfBalance]

What in your fetid imagination could affect a clock alone: consistently, repeatedly.

I see you're having a problem with your 'fetid' knowledge, or maybe brain, either way.

Now, now boys; play nicely. If you want to know why clocks, and everything slow down in the Special Relativity style, look no further than my very own blog. This will explain it all: https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogI ... c=postname If that doesn't make it clear to you, I will gladly clarify.
I haven't got round to time dilation as expressed by General Relativity, but I will eventually.

Come on uwot, you know me a 'bit' by now. I just served him back his volley. But I'll accept boy, especially at my age.

As to knowing why clocks slow down, is not my main point. My main point is that because time is not directly observable, no current human could know "absolutely certainly" that in fact, any change in any particular type of clock, necessarily indicates that time has been dilated, as opposed to the clock simply being affected by some force. And here's why:
As to "Magnetic Moment," wikipedia says the following:

"The magnetic moment of a magnet is a quantity that determines the torque it will experience in an external magnetic field. A loop of electric current, a bar magnet, an electron, a molecule, and a planet all have magnetic moments."

Now couple that with the fact that the universe is literally filled with Electromagnetic Energy. Electromagnetic moments are everywhere, and they affect one another.

Well at least that's a small part of it. We are, after all, speaking of electromagnetic energy, when we talk of clocks and time. The universe is founded on electromagnetic energy. It is also that, around which, Einsteins theories revolve, as does quantum physics. The positive and the negative of potentials as they interact.

And since I know that it's important to you, I shall eventually read your opinion (blog). After all, you are a reasonable enough fellow!


Happy Holidays to everyone!

[Lev Muishkin]

What in your fetid imagination could affect a clock alone: consistently, repeatedly.

I see you're having a problem with your 'fetid' knowledge, or maybe brain, either way.

Now, now boys; play nicely. If you want to know why clocks, and everything slow down in the Special Relativity style, look no further than my very own blog. This will explain it all: https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogI ... c=postname If that doesn't make it clear to you, I will gladly clarify.
I haven't got round to time dilation as expressed by General Relativity, but I will eventually.

The point is that any clock is simply an object that exists in the material world and reflects the conditions of cause and effect like any and all other objects in the material world.
SoB's objection is just stupid; claiming that they have to be a special case. That all of reality, except clocks used to measure the change in time due to speed, stays the same but ONLY clocks are somehow at fault.
The only reason seems to be that the clocks don't agree with his idiotic idea of what he thinks reality ought to be like.

[SpheresOfBalance]

What in your fetid imagination could affect a clock alone: consistently, repeatedly.

I see you're having a problem with your 'fetid' knowledge, or maybe brain, either way.

Now, now boys; play nicely. If you want to know why clocks, and everything slow down in the Special Relativity style, look no further than my very own blog. This will explain it all: https://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogI ... c=postname If that doesn't make it clear to you, I will gladly clarify.
I haven't got round to time dilation as expressed by General Relativity, but I will eventually.

The point is that any clock is simply an object that exists in the material world and reflects the conditions of cause and effect like any and all other objects in the material world.
That's correct!

SoB's objection is just stupid;
No, that's not correct. This is not the first time I've mentioned this, and some well versed students of physics, and Quantum Physics, in the past have recognized my point, as a credible point to ponder.

claiming that they have to be a special case.
Never said such a thing, point it out, quote me!

That all of reality, except clocks used to measure the change in time due to speed, stays the same but ONLY clocks are somehow at fault.
Again, no such thing, have I said, quote me!

The only reason seems to be that the clocks don't agree with his idiotic idea of what he thinks reality ought to be like.
Not at all, like I said, some serious students of physic's get my point, and it caused them to readjust their thinking, with the potential that it illuminates. Though it would seem uwot believes he has it figured out. I unfortunately, can't read his blog, because I have to have some sort of special google account, that I don't have.

But if you feel good about abusing me, instead of acting like an adult, have at it, it's the holiday season after all, and what else is the season for, yet to abuse people, right?

Happy Holidays LM, and all you others as well!

[uwot]

... it would seem uwot believes he has it figured out. I unfortunately, can't read his blog, because I have to have some sort of special google account, that I don't have.

Try this: http://willibouwman.blogspot.co.uk You'll have scroll down and click on Older Posts, look for Why does time slow down the faster you go? And why wouldn't you notice? And The wacky world of Hafele-Keating.
I wouldn't be so presumptuous to claim that I have figured anything out, but I have worked long and hard to understand people who have.

Happy Holidays LM, and all you others as well!

And to you.

[Lev Muishkin]

But if you feel good about abusing me, instead of acting like an adult, have at it, it's the holiday season after all, and what else is the season for, yet to abuse people, right?

Happy Holidays LM, and all you others as well!

I don't know you, so can't "abuse" you. You are in abuse of your own self, being thoroughly narcissistic.
All I am doing is attacking the ideas you present; ridiculous as they are, they stand alone naked and vulnerable. If you were less narcissistic then you might be inclined to defend them with reason.

[SpheresOfBalance]

... it would seem uwot believes he has it figured out. I unfortunately, can't read his blog, because I have to have some sort of special google account, that I don't have.

Try this: http://willibouwman.blogspot.co.uk You'll have scroll down and click on Older Posts, look for Why does time slow down the faster you go? And why wouldn't you notice? And The wacky world of Hafele-Keating.
I wouldn't be so presumptuous to claim that I have figured anything out, but I have worked long and hard to understand people who have.

Happy Holidays LM, and all you others as well!

And to you.

Thanks uwot, I'll try that link.

[SpheresOfBalance]

But if you feel good about abusing me, instead of acting like an adult, have at it, it's the holiday season after all, and what else is the season for, yet to abuse people, right?

Happy Holidays LM, and all you others as well!

I don't know you, so can't "abuse" you. You are in abuse of your own self, being thoroughly narcissistic.
All I am doing is attacking the ideas you present; ridiculous as they are, they stand alone naked and vulnerable. If you were less narcissistic then you might be inclined to defend them with reason.

Actually that's just your opinion of yourself, your shortcomings, it would seem you know them well. You believe as you do about my solution, because you seemingly merely parrot others work, buying into it hook line and sinker. I see that you've only thought about what they said, assuming they're the authority, never questioning it, quite possibly a bit of hero worship is thrown in there as well. Unfortunately that can lead to intellectual blindness. I'm sorry!

The truth is no current human can know with 100% certainty that it was indeed time that was affected and not simply the clock. Since you think it can be done, explain how.

[Ginkgo]

The truth is no current human can know with 100% certainty that it was indeed time that was affected and not simply the clock. Since you think it can be done, explain how.

Yes, we can never know anything with 100% certainty, especially when it comes to induction, but I guess that is the beauty of science. We go with the theory that fits the observations at the moment. At this stage science assumes time dilation to be correct. So the beauty of science is the door being left open to anyone who wants to come along and put an alternative explanation on the table.

[SpheresOfBalance]

The truth is no current human can know with 100% certainty that it was indeed time that was affected and not simply the clock. Since you think it can be done, explain how.

Yes, we can never know anything with 100% certainty,
Sorry Ginkgo, but to this I say, "BS." There are many things we know with 100% certainty. For instance, I know with 100% certainty, my name. I also know with 100% certainty, that I was born and that I shall die. And of course there are many others.

I believe you know what I meant. Many things in science have been proven using the scientific method. As to the testing portion, experiments should be designed to minimize possible errors, especially through the use of appropriate scientific controls. As to Scientific Controls, Wikipedia has this to say:

"A scientific control is an experiment or observation designed to minimize the effects of variables other than the single independent variable. This increases the reliability of the results, often through a comparison between control measurements and the other measurements. Scientific controls are a part of the scientific method."

So, I'm saying that as to time dilation, not enough controls were in place to ensure the results are conclusive, as not all variables could be accounted for, such that speed was effectually isolated as the only variable. Which is why I suggest it should be tested on the upcoming trip to mars, during the entire trip at a given constant speed, to see if the results vary along the way. If they do, then electromagnetic energy and/or gravity is probably the reason why, which is in fact my concern, as to the previous experiments accuracy, or rather the lack thereof.

especially when it comes to induction, but I guess that is the beauty of science. We go with the theory that fits the observations at the moment. At this stage science assumes time dilation to be correct. So the beauty of science is the door being left open to anyone who wants to come along and put an alternative explanation on the table.
I say that it's not really science, that it's shoddy science, if there were not enough controls in place to ensure only one variable is being tested at a time. And such was the case with Time Dilation.

[Ginkgo]

The truth is no current human can know with 100% certainty that it was indeed time that was affected and not simply the clock. Since you think it can be done, explain how.

Yes, we can never know anything with 100% certainty,
Sorry Ginkgo, but to this I say, "BS." There are many things we know with 100% certainty. For instance, I know with 100% certainty, my name. I also know with 100% certainty, that I was born and that I shall die. And of course there are many others.

I believe you know what I meant. Many things in science have been proven using the scientific method. As to the testing portion, experiments should be designed to minimize possible errors, especially through the use of appropriate scientific controls. As to Scientific Controls, Wikipedia has this to say:

"A scientific control is an experiment or observation designed to minimize the effects of variables other than the single independent variable. This increases the reliability of the results, often through a comparison between control measurements and the other measurements. Scientific controls are a part of the scientific method."

So, I'm saying that as to time dilation, not enough controls were in place to ensure the results are conclusive, as not all variables could be accounted for, such that speed was effectually isolated as the only variable. Which is why I suggest it should be tested on the upcoming trip to mars, during the entire trip at a given constant speed, to see if the results vary along the way. If they do, then electromagnetic energy and/or gravity is probably the reason why, which is in fact my concern, as to the previous experiments accuracy, or rather the lack thereof.

especially when it comes to induction, but I guess that is the beauty of science. We go with the theory that fits the observations at the moment. At this stage science assumes time dilation to be correct. So the beauty of science is the door being left open to anyone who wants to come along and put an alternative explanation on the table.
I say that it's not really science, that it's shoddy science, if there were not enough controls in place to ensure only one variable is being tested at a time. And such was the case with Time Dilation.

Well it is possible Descartes was correct and we live in a simulated universe. We are just brains in a vat. Perhaps there was a giant government conspiracy and we only think we know who we are.

Nah, on second thought there are enough controls in place to guarantee this extremely unlikely, So for all practical purposes I am happy to go along with your 100 percent claim. Unless of course in the future someone can come up with an alternative hypothesis, but more importantly provide the observational evidence.

So 100 percent certainty works for me as well in most areas, provided I am convinced there are enough controls in place. This also work for my name as well. A bit like time dilation working for me.. When I last checked my i-phone the GPS system seems to be accurate.

I think your alternative hypothesis for checking time dilation is laudable, but until that can be tested in the future science goes with the current explanation for time dilation because it works. This is regardless of the high number or low number of controls in place. The continual adjustments being made by the technology in accordance with relativity guarantees my faith in the accuracy of my i-phone. It works so we make use of it.

[SpheresOfBalance]

The truth is no current human can know with 100% certainty that it was indeed time that was affected and not simply the clock. Since you think it can be done, explain how.

Yes, we can never know anything with 100% certainty,
Sorry Ginkgo, but to this I say, "BS." There are many things we know with 100% certainty. For instance, I know with 100% certainty, my name. I also know with 100% certainty, that I was born and that I shall die. And of course there are many others.

I believe you know what I meant. Many things in science have been proven using the scientific method. As to the testing portion, experiments should be designed to minimize possible errors, especially through the use of appropriate scientific controls. As to Scientific Controls, Wikipedia has this to say:

"A scientific control is an experiment or observation designed to minimize the effects of variables other than the single independent variable. This increases the reliability of the results, often through a comparison between control measurements and the other measurements. Scientific controls are a part of the scientific method."

So, I'm saying that as to time dilation, not enough controls were in place to ensure the results are conclusive, as not all variables could be accounted for, such that speed was effectually isolated as the only variable. Which is why I suggest it should be tested on the upcoming trip to mars, during the entire trip at a given constant speed, to see if the results vary along the way. If they do, then electromagnetic energy and/or gravity is probably the reason why, which is in fact my concern, as to the previous experiments accuracy, or rather the lack thereof.

especially when it comes to induction, but I guess that is the beauty of science. We go with the theory that fits the observations at the moment. At this stage science assumes time dilation to be correct. So the beauty of science is the door being left open to anyone who wants to come along and put an alternative explanation on the table.
I say that it's not really science, that it's shoddy science, if there were not enough controls in place to ensure only one variable is being tested at a time. And such was the case with Time Dilation.

Well it is possible Descartes was correct and we live in a simulated universe. We are just brains in a vat. Perhaps there was a giant government conspiracy and we only think we know who we are.

Nah, on second thought there are enough controls in place to guarantee this extremely unlikely, So for all practical purposes I am happy to go along with your 100 percent claim. Unless of course in the future someone can come up with an alternative hypothesis, but more importantly provide the observational evidence.

So 100 percent certainty works for me as well in most areas, provided I am convinced there are enough controls in place. This also work for my name as well. A bit like time dilation working for me.. When I last checked my i-phone the GPS system seems to be accurate.

I think your alternative hypothesis for checking time dilation is laudable, but until that can be tested in the future science goes with the current explanation for time dilation because it works. This is regardless of the high number or low number of controls in place. The continual adjustments being made by the technology in accordance with relativity guarantees my faith in the accuracy of my i-phone. It works so we make use of it.

Thanks for the pat on the back, I so seldom receive them, though I do not seek them out, it does feel good.
I use cell phones too, and a GPS device while driving, and I'm glad they work as advertized, just like you. I know they compensate for both the higher altitude, thus faster speed, as well as you do. I'm just neither sure what it is that they are compensating for, nor that their compensation necessarily proves any particular theory. That the mathematical model, (theory) seems to beg the accompanying words is not necessary an indicator that the words are indicative of the truth in what's actually happening. It could be the case, but not necessarily. And I'm sure that hanger on's shall have a sure grip on the first theory, if a more accurate one comes along, simply because it was the first one. That's us humans for you.

Happy Holidays Ginkgo!

I somehow get the impression that you're Japanese, I think it's your pseudonym. Whatever the case, I hope my wishes for your "happy holidays," doesn't anger you, whatever the case may be.

[Lev Muishkin]

I'm so glad i've joined this Forum.
I've learned that the Theory of Relativity is totally wrong. It's the clocks that just seem to stop working properly everytime that ToR is tested.

~Those pesky clocks!!!!!

[uwot]

I'm so glad i've joined this Forum.

Welcome aboard.

I've learned that the Theory of Relativity is totally wrong. It's the clocks that just seem to stop working properly everytime that ToR is tested.

If you have learnt anything, it might be that different people interpret the same empirical data in their own way.

~Those pesky clocks!!!!!

I think SpheresofBalance's point is a bit more subtle; it is not simply that clocks are affected by gravitational and electromagnetic fields, but that all physical processes are.