~ The Truth is a Hard Pill to Swallow ~

[Bill Wiltrack]

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The Truth is a Hard Pill to Swallow
~`Senator John McCain ~
--- December 9, 2014 ---





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A sick, shameful chapter in American history...



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[bobevenson]

Everybody involved in these crimes against humanity, from the decision makers at the top to those doing the dirty work, should be indicted, arrested, prosecuted, convicted, imprisoned and subjected to the same brand of torture that their victims suffered on a daily basis. No, on second thought, just ship the bastards to Nuremberg where they belong.

[WanderingLands]

A chapter that is still going on, and has been going on. Perhaps - our only chapter???

[Bill Wiltrack]

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It's starting to look like a book...of horrific chapters.







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[henry quirk]

Which is worse, I wonder...

Being water boarded (or humiliated in other ways) as a medical team stands by to revive you should you actually do more than sputter and panic...

...or...

...having your head cut off with a knife or sword?

In the first case: you may suffer but you'll live to (potentially) terrorize another day.

In the second: you're friggin' dead.


The fundamental question: did the use of torture yield information that furthered American interests (saved lives)?

Some folks say 'no'.

Some folks say 'yes.

Me, not being privy to a whole whack of classified information, can't say either way.

And neither can any of you.

'nuff said.

[Bill Wiltrack]

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Let's not lose our head over this.


The issue is whether or not torture is an inhumane way to treat prisoners.



Violence, war, killing of any kind, that is a larger philosophical issue.



Torture is meant solely to inflict pain & suffering.



A guise of obtaining valuable information from torture is a false narrative.








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[henry quirk]

"A guise of obtaining valuable information from torture is a false narrative."

This thread is prompted by the release of a 6,000-plus page report detailing the torture inflicted on prisoners by CIA ops with the express purpose of extracting information.

To separate the two (the torture and the agenda) is disingenuous, Bill.

You can argue torture doesn't work (you may be right), but you can't dis-embed the details (torture) from the context.

Example: I capture a lady and spend a week slowly bleeding her to death. I do this for no reason except I want to and can.

This would be an unacceptable use of torture, yes?

Another: My kid is taken. I get my hands on one of the kidnappers. I use pliers, a butter knife, and tweezers to slowly dismantle this person. My goal is to get him to tell me where my kid is.

This could be an acceptable use of torture, yes?

The 'false narrative' (faulty premise) is: 'torture is never permissible/torture is always permissible'.

Context is everything.

[bobevenson]

The fundamental question: did the use of torture yield information that furthered American interests.

Only an unmitigated monster would ask that question.

[henry quirk]

HA!

Been called way worse, Bob.

[WanderingLands]

Directed to henry quirk:

You have to consider that most people whom have been tortured by the authorities have been innocent, which is what is seen today in American torture. Plus that's too extreme to get answers; sure, self defense can be used as a last resort when a suspect becomes violent, but it's inefficient and unethical to do torture.

[henry quirk]

"most people whom have been tortured by the authorities have been innocent"

This thread is not about them.

You know this...so: why yank at my chain?

[henry quirk]

"it's inefficient"

No doubt.

Again: it may not work at all (I suspect it does).

But: you make you due with what you have in the circumstances you're in.

[WanderingLands]

"most people whom have been tortured by the authorities have been innocent"

This thread is not about them.

You know this...so: why yank at my chain?

It does include those people that have been tortured, since this thread is about touching on this subject.

[henry quirk]

Seems to me this thread is about Gitmo.

But: as you and Bill like.

[Bill Wiltrack]

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A guise of obtaining valuable information from torture is a false narrative.





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