What form of discipline should be used at home?

[Bill Wiltrack]

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[Philosophy Explorer]

Is this a form of discipline that is used at home (normally speaking)?

What on Earth are you talking about? Did you even read what I wrote?

So you mean you did try shooting someone in the head. What did your intended victim do that would warrant such action?

PhilX

[The Voice of Time]

So you mean

If I ask you a question I do not have a meaning, are you a bloody idiot!? A question is there to be answered, so when you answer me I expect an answer not a pointless derail.

So give me my answer and not your silly attempt at creating an association gap and filling it with fantasy.

[Philosophy Explorer]

So you mean

If I ask you a question I do not have a meaning, are you a bloody idiot!? A question is there to be answered, so when you answer me I expect an answer not a pointless derail.

So give me my answer and not your silly attempt at creating an association gap and filling it with fantasy.

Sorry. You're not making sense. How can you ask a question with no meaning so I wouldn't know how to respond?

Still awaiting a response from Ansiktsburk.

PhilX

[The Voice of Time]

How can you ask a question with no meaning so I wouldn't know how to respond?

Why are you still not answering the question? Obviously we are talking about two different kinds meanings (literal and insinuated), for fucks sake you moron stop derailing! Answer the bloody question!

[Philosophy Explorer]

How can you ask a question with no meaning so I wouldn't know how to respond?

Why are you still not answering the question? Obviously we are talking about two different kinds meanings (literal and insinuated), for fucks sake you moron stop derailing! Answer the bloody question!

Rephrase your question and stop with the name calling.

PhilX

[The Voice of Time]

Oh my ****ings god!

The name-calling stops when you start having some respect and stop ignoring what I write to you!

Is this a form of discipline that is used at home (normally speaking)? Have you ever tried this yourself or known someone to try this?

What on Earth are you talking about? Did you even read what I wrote?

How much more rephrasing does that require?

You would never make that jump of thought if you read what I wrote, so either you 1) did not read what I wrote, or you had a malicious purpose of ignoring what I wrote to waste my own and everybody else's time.

If I have to describe to you IN DETAIL the full extent of your errenous ways, I'll be really furious, because then you're obviously maliciously playing dumb!

[Philosophy Explorer]

VoT said:

"If I have to describe to you IN DETAIL the full extent of your errenous ways, I'll be really furious, because then you're obviously maliciously playing dumb!"

The maliciousness is on your part with your name calling. Everybody is on a different level in philosophy. When you apologize for your name calling, I'll talk to you again.

PhilX

[Ansiktsburk]

Hi Ansiktsburk,

You said:

"I have never beat my kids, I don't find it effective."

Since you've never beaten your children, how do you know it's not effective?

PhilX

I've never shot a person in the head with a revolver... I think I'll skip trying.

The promise of damage outweighs the desire to try.

Not what I meant. How is this discipline? (still awaiting a response from Ansiktsburk)

PhilX

Sorry for late answer, I don't log in too often. I base it on experiences from others. And I don't want to experiment on my kids. And frankly, they were pretty nice so there was really no need.

[Ansiktsburk]

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Discipline has a definite positive side, this is obviously the answer to the question put by the topic of the thread. It's strange that the right amount of pain is so pleasurable when you get a little aroused, both to give and to be given. Like this picture








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[Gee]

Kayla;

It seems that I am always apologizing to you. You wrote a very good post with interesting and valid points that I intended to address, but my computer had other plans. Apparently getting on-line proved too much for my old computer, and it started locking up every time I tried. I finally put it out to pasture and am working with a newer younger model.

So I hope that you will forgive my late response and consider my thoughts below.

I was the Mary Poppins of my neighborhood from the age of 14 to about 18 when I could get a better paying job. The kids all loved me and the parents were grateful to have me work for them. I was so good, that at one point I thought about training as a Nanny. And I was positive that when I became a Mother, I would also be very good at that.

so far our experiences are similar.

This does not surprise me. I have read a lot of your posts and find that you have a very good mind and an honest disposition. It also occurs to me that in order to qualify as an adoptive parent, you would have to be able to display good problem solving and parenting skills.

but arguing from ones own experience is dangerous - as one's experience is unique and often no general conclusions can be drawn from it.

This has been my point all along. It is impossible to state that a discipline used on one child will work in the same manner on another. Parents, children, families, relationships, and circumstances are just too different for anyone to make a ruling that discipline A is good and discipline B is bad.

I knew a family where the Dad looked very dangerous when disciplining his children. He looked more like a bear chastising a cub, as he would cuff them, roll them around, and look like he was damaging them -- but the children were never hurt. He was actually very gentle with them. He was a very physically demonstrative man, and was just as physically demonstrative in his affection toward his children. His kids ran around, rolled and wrestled like a litter of puppies, and 50 years later, I can tell you that his children grew up to be happy stable people. They were neighbors, and I still know them.

On the other hand, I knew a little girl that I babysat for, who barely even needed a babysitter. She lived with her Dad, who never spanked her -- didn't believe in it. But her behavior was so good and so controlled that she did not have to be guided or watched or disciplined -- ever. But I never saw her laugh with full abandon like children should. If I tried to get her to play, she would pull out a game to play, as she did not make things up or use her imagination or just be impulsive. Her Dad was very proud of her behavior, but I was worried about it. I knew that her Dad was a control freak, and I wonder how she adapted to a world that is often spontaneous.

The only general conclusions that I have been able to draw regarding discipline is that it should not damage the child, it should be age appropriate, it should be applied consistently, and it should match the deed.

I am a parent now - but to an adopted child. i never had to deal with a cranky or sick toddler as a parent for example.

So I take it that you got her after she was civilized. Humans are not born civilized. It usually takes about five years before we can let them loose on society, then we send them to school. (chuckle)

In another thread that asked what makes humans different from other species, one of the responses was that humans need to control everything around them. This is true, and it starts at birth. First we control Mom, then Dad and the rest of the immediate family. By the time we are one year old, we dominate the household: Can't go sledding, it's too cold for baby. Can't go to the beach, it's too hot for baby. Must go home baby is tired. Time to feed baby. Be quiet, baby is sleeping. If anything disturbs baby, then your nice sweet baby turns into a red faced screaming tyrant that is better described as an imp of Satan, than as a little angel.

Then they turn two and learn how to scream, "No!" and talk back.

but so far being a parent has not lead to me substantially changing my views from before i was a parent

Give it time.

I know a woman, who is in her 80's. She was sitting at my Mother's kitchen table with us discussing child raising and stated that when she had her first child, she knew exactly how to raise her child. She was a professional teacher after all with lots of training and experience. When she had her second child, she realized the mistakes she had made with the first and adjusted. By the time she had her third child, she was sure that now she knew what she was doing. Then she stated that she has six children and is sure that she does not know a damned thing about raising children.

I burst out laughing because this is a woman that I have admired all of my life. She is successful by anyone's measure socially, professionally, financially, and within her family. She has raised six successful children, so if she thinks that she did not do the job well enough, there is no hope for the rest of us.

When raising a child, one does not see the actual results from their work for many years. We all make mistakes. It is inevitable, so we do our best and love our children.

i understand a little better the frustration and the fatigue involved - but that is far from saying i changed my mind about how many parents express that frustration and fatigue

OK. But do you have the right to judge them? Do you know enough about their particular circumstance to judge them fairly? Does your judgement of them make the situation better or worse?

I was in a restroom at a train station in, I believe it was Chicago, many years ago. A woman came in with three little ones, who were bouncing off the walls. She was yelling, almost screaming at them, and slapping them trying to get control. It was very embarrassing. I went back to the waiting area and noted when she came out a few minutes later. Everyone was watching her, scowling at her, and making comments about how she was treating her children. This in turn caused her to be even more embarrassed, and her frustration rose. The whole thing was escalating.

I was thinking that she was an abusive parent and wondering where Protective Social Services was when they were needed to protect children. Then I remembered the pamphlet that I had read about child abuse. It stated that often the abuse is caused because the parent needs protection, so I walked over to her and said something lame like, "Traveling with kids is hard." She smiled and agreed. I sat down and started talking to her, while also trying to distract the kids. I learned that she had been on trains since early that morning, which was why the kids were bouncing off the walls, and that she had a few hours of lay over before her last connection, which would bring her home. She was going home to her family after some tragedy had caused her to uproot her life -- I don't remember what it was.

After we talked a while, I volunteered to watch her kids so she could get in line to buy them food. She had tried standing in line before, but the kids were too hard to control. (When a Mother has a third child under the age of five, God should really give her an extra arm and hand.) When I left, the kids had been fed, two of them were sleeping on the benches, and she was reading a story book to the oldest. She just needed one friendly face and a little help. Or should I have judged her like everyone else did?

There is no real comparison between a babysitter and a parent. It would be like comparing an employee to an owner. The employee goes to work, does a reasonably good job, and leaves with the satisfaction of knowing that they did their job well and will get paid for it at the end of the week. The owner, however, never gets to leave his job and has the responsibility

percussive maintenance works (or rather does not work) equally for employees and owners. being an employee and an owner are not the same but the two things are not completely different.

The responsibility factor is day and night different, and that makes the pressure different.

in some cases i explained to my clients how i was able to put their hellions to bed and get all the homework on time - and then they were able to reproduce the results - just as an employer may be in a position to show the owner a thing or two

and in some cases what i did could not be done by parents - the kids saw me as an occasional playmate and friend - so things were easy - and that is not a role that parents can fully assume

Agreed. A good employee is valuable, and a good employer will appreciate it.

Also consider that our children study us from the day they are born, so they know well how to push our buttons and manipulate us. This is not as easily accomplished with a babysitter.

She did not like it, but also had no reason to cry because I was not hurting her, as it was more a battle of wills.

it has always puzzled me how many adults do not realize that in a battle of wits, a child is no match to them

This made me chuckle. Tell me, is there anything that can scatter your wits faster than emotion? Not that I know of. When dealing with your own child, emotion is involved -- ALWAYS. Separating your emotions, the child's emotions, the child's manipulations of your emotions, the situational emotions, and your wits takes work, and should always be done before disciplining.

As far as 'will' is concerned, the child always has the advantage. The child wants what will make the child happy, but the parent also wants what will make the child happy.

with my daughter i remember one night where i shut the tv off because it was past her bed time and she got up and turned it back on and so forth. this went on for an hour or more. it was frustrating. it was an hour in purgatory. I came close to crying. and then she just fell asleep.

sometimes it might seem that children have infinite energy - but they do not.

True. But neither do parents.

Parenting is not easy.

i dont think anyone ever suggested it was. and being a parent i knew that it was not going to be easy and the difference between intellectual knowledge of that and actually dealing with it came as a bit of a shock.

True. In life, and in families, intellectual knowledge does not always deal well with reality. The "should be's" are nice guidelines, but they can not be considered as rules regarding right and wrong. Sometimes the right and wrong of something slips between the cracks in reality. I am going to tell you a story because I think that it is a good example of how intellectual right and wrong, legal right and wrong, and actual right and wrong sometimes don't match up.

When my youngest was 13 years old, we had a girl in the neighborhood, who was either 20 or 21 years old, and this woman/girl liked to hang out with the kids my daughter's age. Her parents had given her a car, which she liked to drive around in the neighborhood with a bunch of teenagers. My daughter, of course, wanted to drive around with them, but I said no. I could not understand why this woman/child wanted to spend time with kids 7 years her junior. She was a beautiful young woman, but I suspect that she was not too bright and was emotionally immature.

Because my daughter was excluded from the group by my dictates, she was ostracized and was the butt of jokes and cat calls from the others, who were with the woman/child. Suffice it to say that it was a miserable summer for her.

One day I came home from the store, and my 21 year old son was working in the front yard. He told me that the girl, with a bunch of teenagers in the car, had pulled up in the driveway, calling him names and insulting the entire family. If it would have been a man, he would have been able to handle it, but what was he supposed to do with a woman and teenagers? She had pulled out of my driveway just before I got home and was sitting in her car at the corner talking to some teens.

So I pulled out of my driveway and cut across the front of her car so that she could not leave, then I got out and told her that we needed to talk. We walked over the the corner house where there was an opened gate; she stood on one side; I stood on the other. I told her that I would not tolerate her harassment any more, that I wanted her to stay off my property, and that it was time to back off of calling my daughter names. Enough was enough. She informed me that she could do what she wanted as it was not illegal, and that she was a kid, but I was an adult who had to follow the rules -- so there was nothing I could do about it. She was quite smug about this.

I realized that there would be no reasoning with her because she saw me as the "red coats" who were required to wear bright colors and march in a straight line, while she was the American, who got to wear camouflage and hide behind trees while shooting at the bright colors. I was almost 50 years old and probably looked impotent to her, but I am also an American, and sometimes slightly less than civilized. So I pushed the gate toward her setting her off balance, then wrapped my arm around her three foot ponytail, and whipped her head down. I put my knee into her chest and yelled into her face that she would leave my family alone, or I would kick her ass, then knowing that she gets her protection from men, I stated that my son would kick her boyfriend's ass, and my husband would shoot her father. Then I let her up.

She called the police. They came down and talked to me, so I told them that we argued, stumbled over each other and fell down, but no one actually hit anyone. They left without making a report. Then the surprises came. Some of the mothers, who had teens, came to my house to thank me and told me that the woman/child was buying their teens cigarettes, beer, and giving them marijuana, at least. Other people thanked me because she had been harassing them. Apparently calling the police got the attention of her parents, so they took the car away, and she never bothered my daughter again. The only really bad news was that one of the boys, who was only 15 years old, got her pregnant. She was not prosecuted for rape, as she should have been, but I am sure he will be paying child support for a long time.

The other surprise was that the local gas station gave me free pop or coffee every time I went in there for the rest of that year. They were sure that this woman/child was encouraging the teens to steal from them, but they had not been able to catch them.

This girl was very good at being a pain without walking over that line or providing evidence that would get her jailed, she did not need to be prosecuted, she just needed a good spanking, and she had needed it for a long time. There are some people who will push unless they are stopped, and their age is irrelevant.

This is also a unique situation. You should know that I have not been in five physical altercations in my entire life, which includes my childhood, but sometimes it is just necessary.

but however frustrating it can be i never had the urge to hit my daughter - or to spank her for those who insist that spanking is not hitting.

Consider that a child acquires the rational aspect of mind at around seven years old, so reasoning with a child prior to seven years is an exercise in futility, or simply people fooling themselves.

People who are age seven or above rarely need a spanking, but there are some.

Gee

[Kayla]

This does not surprise me. I have read a lot of your posts and find that you have a very good mind and an honest disposition. It also occurs to me that in order to qualify as an adoptive parent, you would have to be able to display good problem solving and parenting skills.

you also have to demonstrate patience in the face of paperwork that is ludicrous both in terms of content and volume

in our case our age made things more difficult as well - the case worker told us that we are by far the youngest adoptive parents she had to deal with. she talked to our parents at length - far more than a caseworker normally would.

The only general conclusions that I have been able to draw regarding discipline is that it should not damage the child, it should be age appropriate, it should be applied consistently, and it should match the deed.

a common theme that comes up when someone tries to defend corporal punishment is 'respect'

but hitting (or spanking or wahtever you want to call it) in response to disrespect makes no sense - it is about as mismatched a response as you can get

there are ways of harming children that do not involve corporal punishment - but i do not think any one disputes that

So I take it that you got her after she was civilized. Humans are not born civilized. It usually takes about five years before we can let them loose on society, then we send them to school. (chuckle)

she was and remains a very high maintenance child. she was well socialized - despite her birth parents not because of them - but gets upset very easily and is very emotionally insecure

If anything disturbs baby, then your nice sweet baby turns into a red faced screaming tyrant that is better described as an imp of Satan, than as a little angel.

fair enough

but so far being a parent has not lead to me substantially changing my views from before i was a parent

Give it time.

so far i have come across nothing that would make me even consider changing my views on corporal punishment

i changed my views on many specifics - not so much on any of the generalities

OK. But do you have the right to judge them? Do you know enough about their particular circumstance to judge them fairly? Does your judgement of them make the situation better or worse?

not sure what you are getting at here

i am well aware of the philosophical difficulties with the notion of free will

so one can reasonably say that while, say, spanking is bad, the parents are not in any meaningful sense to blame for their (bad) actions

i know that how judgment is expressed can make a huge difference

When I left, the kids had been fed, two of them were sleeping on the benches, and she was reading a story book to the oldest. She just needed one friendly face and a little help. Or should I have judged her like everyone else did?

no argument there

under enough pressure everyone will crack and not act as one should

but this only supports the view that corporal punishment is ineffective - since many people resort to it only when they can (for reasons beyond thair control n many cases) no longer think straight

As far as 'will' is concerned, the child always has the advantage. The child wants what will make the child happy, but the parent also wants what will make the child happy.

children lack endurance

it does not always look that way - when a child is jumping up and down non stop their energy seems infinite

but take a child on a hike through the woods - and you will see how little endurance even the healthiest and most athletic child has

When my youngest was 13 years old, we had a girl in the neighborhood, who was either 20 or 21 years old, and this woman/girl liked to hang out with the kids my daughter's age. Her parents had given her a car, which she liked to drive around in the neighborhood with a bunch of teenagers. My daughter, of course, wanted to drive around with them, but I said no. I could not understand why this woman/child wanted to spend time with kids 7 years her junior. She was a beautiful young woman, but I suspect that she was not too bright and was emotionally immature.

i think ppl make too much of a big deal about friendships with a noticeable age difference

i always had friends across the entire age spectrum

i had friends my parents did not entirely approve of - and their solution was to welcome them to our home and encourage them to hang out in our basement where they got some adult supervision and limited access to drugs and alcohol

had they acted as so many parents do and told me not to hang out with them - i probably would have anyway and got into trouble

this may or may not have any relevance to this particular situation

i have friends in the 12 to 15 range - and i see no issue with that although i do not supply them with alcohol or drugs

The only really bad news was that one of the boys, who was only 15 years old, got her pregnant. She was not prosecuted for rape, as she should have been, but I am sure he will be paying child support for a long time.

i am confused. if he was raped then why would he have to pay for child support?

[Gee]

Hi Kayla;

Please consider my following responses.

a common theme that comes up when someone tries to defend corporal punishment is 'respect'

but hitting (or spanking or wahtever you want to call it) in response to disrespect makes no sense - it is about as mismatched a response as you can get

Actually there is nothing 'mismatched' about it. You are just missing some of the middle of that argument. Hitting produces pain and fear, fear makes a person comply so that they will not be hit again. This compliance is obedience, which translates to respect for the person, who must be obeyed. Makes perfect sense and is often very effective.

Consider that the first time you dumped your bicycle on the sidewalk, you learned that concrete is hard, it hurts and scrapes up your skin. You developed a 'respect' for concrete. The first time you put a spoonful of very hot soup in your mouth, you developed a 'respect' for hot foods. Life is full of lessons that give us pain and fear which causes us to change our behavior. Denying this is denying reality.

Corporal punishment is often used in the military and in prisons. Why? Because in the military, if a person does not follow orders, then people can die unnecessarily. In prison the people have already been judged to be dangerous, so their behavior needs to change. In both of these cases, danger is the justification for corporal punishment. So should corporal punishment be used on children? As I have stated before, only if the behavior will lead to dangerous or damaging consequences, or if all other methods have been used and this is the only way to stop the behavior.

there are ways of harming children that do not involve corporal punishment - but i do not think any one disputes that

But you also don't seem to want to talk about it, and are stuck on "hitting". I know a woman, who used to routinely put her children in the corner. There is nothing wrong with this, and no one talks about it, but she used to forget the children. It was not uncommon to find a child laying on the floor in the corner, after they had cried themselves to sleep. Is this abuse? Yes. And it may be one of the worse kinds of abuse.

Although the child may not consciously know it, subconsciously they are aware that Mom is using this punishment to get rid of them. So feelings of not being wanted mix with ideas of punishment, which can twist into all kinds of psychological nightmares.

I don't like isolating a child and see little value in it. I used the corner as a timeout when other redirects would not work, but limited the time in the corner to match the age of the child. Children do not have the ability to focus for very long, so a two year old does not need to be in the corner more than two minutes, a five year old, five minutes, etc. I actually used a timer. When 'the corner' is used as a punishment, the time can be extended, but a chair or stool should be provided, and it still needs to be age appropriate. When grounding a child to their room, I limited it to an hour or two, then had them come out and do some chores. If it was a serious offence, they might do three or four stints, with chores in between.

she was and remains a very high maintenance child. she was well socialized - despite her birth parents not because of them - but gets upset very easily and is very emotionally insecure

I am not sure what to say about your above statement. If I am reading it correctly, then you are in for about 20 years of hard work and heartache. I have worked with a few girls, who could easily be described by your above statement, and found that the best of them did not really succeed at any kind of happy whole life until they were walking into their 30's. Of course, I did not have constant access to them the way that you do, but still find that repairing the damage of broken bonds and trust is not easily accomplished -- if it can be accomplished.

You might be wise to carefully consider your feelings toward her birth parents. If you think of them as 'bad' people, your thoughts will be reflected in your facial expressions, actions, and the words you choose. She WILL pick up on this, as we can not hide our true feelings from our children. She will also know instinctively that she is part of them, and they are part of her, so their badness will reflect on her self image. It may be better if you can think of them as confused people, who made a lot of mistakes. Your daughter, on the other hand, must be allowed to hate them and be angry with them, then to love them and forgive them, alternately. She will need to go through this many times over her life in order to heal. You don't want her to have to go through it without your support.

If there was one thing that I learned with these girls, it was that instead of trying to make things right for the child, I just needed to make them better. I learned to celebrate the small victories and take things one day at a time.

OK. But do you have the right to judge them? Do you know enough about their particular circumstance to judge them fairly? Does your judgement of them make the situation better or worse?

not sure what you are getting at here

I will make it more clear. As my Mother used to tell me, "If you have nothing nice to say, don't talk." So what I am 'getting at' is, shut up, get our noses out of their business and show some respect. If a person is not damaging their child, then what business is it of ours to interfere? What criticism could we possibly give that would be beneficial?

You are too intelligent to believe that walking up to a person and chastizing them for the way they are treating their children will make any difference. It will only irritate them and puff up the self-righteous ego of their critic. Now if you are watching them to help you decide how you want to raise your own children, then it is fine. But this does not include judging, gossiping, scowling, insulting, whispered asides, or any other kind of disrespect.

children lack endurance

it does not always look that way - when a child is jumping up and down non stop their energy seems infinite

but take a child on a hike through the woods - and you will see how little endurance even the healthiest and most athletic child has

It is true that children lack endurance, but I think that you are confusing endurance with energy. Children lack endurance because they lack focus and can not keep their attention on one thing long enough. But that does not mean that they lack energy.

A few years ago I found the journal that I was required to keep for an English class. I had to write a page a day and did this when my middle child was two years old. Reading it, I realized that I had forgotten how many times she put me down for a nap, instead of me putting her down for a nap. I used to lay down with her to get her quiet enough for sleep, but I fell asleep as often as she did, then she would play in the bed waiting for me to wake up. I also cried myself to sleep at night a few times out of sheer exhaustion.

This was the child that was born a month early and spent the next years moving through life at 80 miles per hour. She actually fell off of my double bed at two months old. I accused her brother of pulling her off the bed, because two month old babies can not move that far -- they can't even roll over or lift their head. Any other baby would have been safe, but she actually wriggled off the bed. I know because I caught her doing it afterward and had to apologize to my son.

When she was four years old, I confessed to my Mother that I did not like to take her shopping with me. People would see all of the bruises all over her and give me dirty looks thinking that I beat her. No. She beat herself against chairs, tables, the porch, and anything else she could find to run off of or through. She was in her mid-teens when we learned that she was ADHD. Prior to that it never occurred to her dim-witted Mother that she was anything less than perfect. I assumed the problem of exhaustion was with me.

When my youngest was 13 years old, we had a girl in the neighborhood, who was either 20 or 21 years old, and this woman/girl liked to hang out with the kids my daughter's age. Her parents had given her a car, which she liked to drive around in the neighborhood with a bunch of teenagers. My daughter, of course, wanted to drive around with them, but I said no. I could not understand why this woman/child wanted to spend time with kids 7 years her junior. She was a beautiful young woman, but I suspect that she was not too bright and was emotionally immature.

i think ppl make too much of a big deal about friendships with a noticeable age difference

i always had friends across the entire age spectrum

But we are not talking about a person with an eclectic group of friends. We are talking about a woman, who targets young teens and preteens. When a woman wants to spend time with kids 7 years her junior, there is a reason. For most 20 year olds it would be a case of "been there, done that", so they would get bored very quickly, but if she does not get bored, then something is attracting her interest. A wise parent will take the time to determine what that attraction is.

My daughter was not allowed to get in a car with anyone that I did not know without my express permission, so she brought this woman to my house to ask permission. I questioned the woman, found her answers lacking, and denied permission. As it turns out, I was correct in doing so.

Let's take off the gloves and tell the truth. This woman was a child predator, a child molester. One of the boys that she had sexual relations with was only 12 years old. It is interesting to note that after my daughter's birthday that year, she was affectionately called the 'last virgin' by her friends. She was 14 years old, had friends from 12 years to 18 years, but she was the only virgin in her group. I suspect that there was a lot more going on in that car than any of the parents will ever know.

If that woman had been a man, if he was a handsome man, who liked to ride around with preteens and give them beer and cigarettes and drugs, if he had sex with a 12 year old and impregnated a 15 year old -- HE WOULD BE IN JAIL. This is a simple case of gender bias, as the police could not see the danger in a pretty young woman.

i had friends my parents did not entirely approve of - and their solution was to welcome them to our home and encourage them to hang out in our basement where they got some adult supervision and limited access to drugs and alcohol

That is a good solution, but I don't have a basement. Discipline is not just about punishment, it is also about rewards and positive reinforcement. My daughter definitely deserved a reward, and the neighborhood kids needed to learn that not only is wholesome fun possible, but it is actually fun. So I threw her a huge birthday bash that is still talked about today. We started with a Scavenger Hunt that involved many of the neighbors, as the kids had to find the preacher's house (by the church) and shoot a basketball through the hoop, find the spy and get their 'secret code', find the queen in the castle (a huge old house in the neighborhood) and trade her a perfect rock for a diamond. The 'queen' actually sat on her porch with a ruler and measured the stones until one satisfied her, the 'diamonds' were crystal buttons that I had given her. They had to tell jokes to one guy and make him laugh, sing Christmas songs to another, and find a 'perfect' clover for another. In the meantime they had to find a red ant, a black ant, (alive) a white flower and a pink flower (wild only), an orange leaf, etc., things that are everywhere until you start looking.

When the kids got back, we had two picnic tables full of food, and I had rented the biggest stereo system that Rent-to-Own had and put up a tarp with icycle Christmas lights hanging all around it for a dance area. Then we played games like Limbo and wheel barrow races with guy and girl teams. After the cake and ice-cream, the families went home, and we had a bonfire where the kids sat around cooking marshmallows, telling stories, and singing songs. Then they were all inducted into the Order of Siam. Sixteen kids spent the night in two tents set up in the back yard, one for boys and one for girls. Either my husband or I was up all night to supervise, and in the morning we fed them a huge breakfast and sent them home.

Wholesome fun is possible, even for teens, if they have some guidance. My back yard became the place to be in the summer for the next five years, all of the kids learned how to stack the wood to start a camp fire and how to put out a fire responsibly.

The only really bad news was that one of the boys, who was only 15 years old, got her pregnant. She was not prosecuted for rape, as she should have been, but I am sure he will be paying child support for a long time.

i am confused. if he was raped then why would he have to pay for child support?

Because a child, that is the product of rape, still needs food and clothing and a home. This is another aspect of gender bias that people do not consider. If a female is raped and a pregnancy follows, she has the option to terminate, give up the child, or keep it. If a male is raped, he can not demand that she terminate or give up the child, so if she chooses to keep it, then he is the father and owes child support. Although a good attorney may be able to limit the support payments to start when the father becomes an adult, his best chance to get out of the support payments is if she marries and her husband wishes to adopt the child.

A male can not give up a child unless someone else takes it. Consider that if a man could say that he was raped, tricked, or seduced, how many men would say just that to get out of paying support? Or maybe he could say that he was bewitched, and have her burned for being a witch like they did in the old days. (chuckle)

Gee

[SpheresOfBalance]

I think many people believe that discipline is needed to maintain a stable home environment. If so, then what form is best? Does spanking, e.g., work? I pick this form because I've personally known a couple of women that like to be spanked and I mean spanked hard. This makes me wonder what can be done to help children grow up?

What have you to say?

PhilX

It all depends upon the situation. One should not enter into negotiations of conflict, with preconceptions of resolve, instead always both listen to the, so called, offenders arguments and watch their physical display, then decide if and what should be done to rectify the, so called, transgression.

[Kayla]

Actually there is nothing 'mismatched' about it. You are just missing some of the middle of that argument. Hitting produces pain and fear, fear makes a person comply so that they will not be hit again. This compliance is obedience, which translates to respect for the person, who must be obeyed. Makes perfect sense and is often very effective.

I am a little confused by the link between compliance and respect. Compliance may indicate respect but it can also exist in the absence f any respect whatsoever.

Consider that the first time you dumped your bicycle on the sidewalk, you learned that concrete is hard, it hurts and scrapes up your skin. You developed a 'respect' for concrete.

different meaning of the word, I think.

Life is full of lessons that give us pain and fear which causes us to change our behavior. Denying this is denying reality.

i dont think anyone denies this

but that is hardly a reason for parents to impose more pain and fear on their children

Corporal punishment is often used in the military and in prisons.

i thought we were talking raising children not running a boot camp or a prison

but from what i remember, when flogging was abolished in the british military, many people expected the men to run amock

that did not happen

also do you really believe that prisons make people more respectful of others?

So should corporal punishment be used on children? As I have stated before, only if the behavior will lead to dangerous or damaging consequences, or if all other methods have been used and this is the only way to stop the behavior.

this can be used to justify spanking but this can just as easily be used to justify the sort of flogging that leaves permanent scars

I can just picture some 18th century British guy sneering at the liberals who advocate no harsher penalty than a spanking. he will ask what can be done with someone on who spanking has no effect? Obviously the answer is using the cat o nine tails.

the argument will be entirely analogous

also, in practice vast majority of corporal punishment occurs when a parent loses their temper and no other reason

But you also don't seem to want to talk about it, and are stuck on "hitting". I know a woman, who used to routinely put her children in the corner. There is nothing wrong with this, and no one talks about it, but she used to forget the children. It was not uncommon to find a child laying on the floor in the corner, after they had cried themselves to sleep. Is this abuse? Yes. And it may be one of the worse kinds of abuse.

i am hard pressed to think of anyone who opposes corporal punishment and yet supports the sort of punishments you describe

not sure what you are trying to say here

I am not sure what to say about your above statement. If I am reading it correctly, then you are in for about 20 years of hard work and heartache.

quite possibly

i am not delusional and not think that love will magically cure everything

You might be wise to carefully consider your feelings toward her birth parents. If you think of them as 'bad' people, your thoughts will be reflected in your facial expressions, actions, and the words you choose.

her birth father is a very bad person and she knows it.

her birth mother is actually in the picture - and she is not a bad person but more of a messed up one. the girl herself has described her birth mother as being extremely immature, worse than a kid. she loves her birth mom - but treats her more as a child might treat an obviously messed up older sibling than a parent - she does not see her as someone who can tell her what to do

You are too intelligent to believe that walking up to a person and chastizing them for the way they are treating their children will make any difference.

not sure where this is coming from

i dont think i ever suggested doing this

anything else she could find to run off of or through. She was in her mid-teens when we learned that she was ADHD. Prior to that it never occurred to her dim-witted Mother that she was anything less than perfect. I assumed the problem of exhaustion was with me.

not sure i suggested at any point that raising children is easy

some children are easier than others

If that woman had been a man, if he was a handsome man, who liked to ride around with preteens and give them beer and cigarettes and drugs, if he had sex with a 12 year old and impregnated a 15 year old -- HE WOULD BE IN JAIL. This is a simple case of gender bias, as the police could not see the danger in a pretty young woman.

again not sure what this has to do with corporal punishment

i do not see a parallel between a 20 year old man impregnating a 15 year old girl, and a 20 year old girl getting pregnant by a 15 year old boy

That is a good solution, but I don't have a basement.

a similar solution can work with a non-subterranean room

Wholesome fun is possible, even for teens, if they have some guidance.

more than once my friends and I participated in wholesome fun to please adults - and yes, even teens often want to please adults, however much then pretend otherwise

but then we laughed about how lame the wholesome fun was, and when the adults were not around found something less wholesome to do

Because a child, that is the product of rape, still needs food and clothing and a home. This is another aspect of gender bias that people do not consider. If a female is raped and a pregnancy follows, she has the option to terminate, give up the child, or keep it. If a male is raped,

i am confused

did the actually force the 15 year old boy to have sex? like hold him down and force herself on him?

but this is in any case a topic very removed from corporal punishment