Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

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cladking
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by cladking »

Wyman wrote: Is an armchair without arms really an armchair? What say you?

I would say in any language an "armchair" must have arms. A beanbag "chair" is not a real chair either because it doesn't fullfill the defining characteristics of "chair"; it is a beanbag made for sitting upon.

Language has been evolving in the direction of "inclusion" but this fragmentation probably could never lead to improved communication. It could possibly lead to better thinking (I doubt it) but a primary function of human language is communication so these are steps backward.
Philosophy Explorer
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Wyman joked:

"That should be the basis of a joke - Did you hear the one about the philosopher who walked into an armchair store...'
I foresee a new post from Philx in the future - Is an armchair without arms really an armchair? What say you?"

I can go you one better. Did you hear about the one about philosopher Wyman sitting in an armchair, but Wyman had no arms!!! What say you?

PhilX
Ginkgo
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by Ginkgo »

cladking wrote:
Wyman wrote: Is an armchair without arms really an armchair? What say you?

I would say in any language an "armchair" must have arms. A beanbag "chair" is not a real chair either because it doesn't fullfill the defining characteristics of "chair"; it is a beanbag made for sitting upon.

Language has been evolving in the direction of "inclusion" but this fragmentation probably could never lead to improved communication. It could possibly lead to better thinking (I doubt it) but a primary function of human language is communication so these are steps backward.

I would disagree, the idea that we can wipe everything away and start again is THE backward step. History has had too many 'inglorious revolutions'. History has shown that such ideas are propagated by individuals who have little or no understanding of how knowledge has been accumulated.
cladking
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by cladking »

Ginkgo wrote:History has shown that such ideas are propagated by individuals who have little or no understanding of how knowledge has been accumulated.

ALL new knowledge is acquired by individuals through ideas made possible by language.

It has always and only been thus.

It is only through complex language that these new ideas can be relayed to others and passed down to new generations. This is true now and it was true before the language collapsed and splintered at the tower of babel.

The change is that before the natural human language failed that it was possible for philosophers to build on the work of previous philosophers. This is far more difficult and nearly impossible with modern language.
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Cladking said:

"ALL new knowledge is acquired by individuals through ideas made possible by language."

Not true to which I can personally testify (I'm always wary of all statements).

PhilX
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HexHammer
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by HexHammer »

cladking wrote:ALL new knowledge is acquired by individuals through ideas made possible by language.

It has always and only been thus.

It is only through complex language that these new ideas can be relayed to others and passed down to new generations. This is true now and it was true before the language collapsed and splintered at the tower of babel.

The change is that before the natural human language failed that it was possible for philosophers to build on the work of previous philosophers. This is far more difficult and nearly impossible with modern language.
Pure nonsense! Spoken straight out of your ignorent ass.

You clearly havn't studied in the field of human behavior, and know nothing about compulsions, genetic memory and mimicking.
cladking
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by cladking »

Language is the egg of the chicken of human progress.

The egg is invisible to the individual after it's broken or scrambled.

I warned you that language is invisible to people who have thought themselves into existence. Logically, it's not really possible to think or reason oneself into existence and if it were it would certainly require language.
Ginkgo
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by Ginkgo »

cladking wrote:
Ginkgo wrote:History has shown that such ideas are propagated by individuals who have little or no understanding of how knowledge has been accumulated.

ALL new knowledge is acquired by individuals through ideas made possible by language.

It has always and only been thus.

It is only through complex language that these new ideas can be relayed to others and passed down to new generations. This is true now and it was true before the language collapsed and splintered at the tower of babel.

The change is that before the natural human language failed that it was possible for philosophers to build on the work of previous philosophers. This is far more difficult and nearly impossible with modern language.


So, are you saying the Tower of Babel was an actual historical event?
cladking
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by cladking »

Ginkgo wrote:


So, are you saying the Tower of Babel was an actual historical event?

No. It is almost certainly not an actual historical event... ...at least not in the way we understand the terms.

The entire story is a confusion of the story of the change in language in all probability. The details are sketchy at best but the point of the story is that humans with the abilty to communicate clearly in a metaphysical language were capable of nearly anything except maintaining this language as knowledge of the gods (nature) became overly complex. When the paradigm of complete understanding got too difficult the entire thing came crumbling down. This story appears throughout ancient literature in a multitude of forms but all were written from modern understanding because the ancient language hasn't survived except in very limited way and in a multitude of confused renditions.

There used to be one language that all humans understood that was like all animal languages except it was far more complex. Humans outgrew it. It became too complex for the average man and couldn't be translated into modern language so was forgotten and lost. It is the origin of human amnesia of our past. 40,000 years of science and history collapsed but it can all be restored, probably.

The point isn't so much we need to do this so much as the point is that we need to move on without the language and we've done very poorly at moving on. Except for science we'd be stuck in a dark ages. The human race has been on a 4,000 year detour through confusion and more especially an inability to make progress except in science and to a very limited extent in religion which is just a confusion of ancient applied science.
Ginkgo
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by Ginkgo »

cladking wrote:
Ginkgo wrote:


So, are you saying the Tower of Babel was an actual historical event?

No. It is almost certainly not an actual historical event... ...at least not in the way we understand the terms.

The entire story is a confusion of the story of the change in language in all probability. The details are sketchy at best but the point of the story is that humans with the abilty to communicate clearly in a metaphysical language were capable of nearly anything except maintaining this language as knowledge of the gods (nature) became overly complex. When the paradigm of complete understanding got too difficult the entire thing came crumbling down. This story appears throughout ancient literature in a multitude of forms but all were written from modern understanding because the ancient language hasn't survived except in very limited way and in a multitude of confused renditions.

There used to be one language that all humans understood that was like all animal languages except it was far more complex. Humans outgrew it. It became too complex for the average man and couldn't be translated into modern language so was forgotten and lost. It is the origin of human amnesia of our past. 40,000 years of science and history collapsed but it can all be restored, probably.

The point isn't so much we need to do this so much as the point is that we need to move on without the language and we've done very poorly at moving on. Except for science we'd be stuck in a dark ages. The human race has been on a 4,000 year detour through confusion and more especially an inability to make progress except in science and to a very limited extent in religion which is just a confusion of ancient applied science.
You seem to be saying the following:

(a) There was a time when all humans had a common understanding of the world by way of a common metaphysical language.

(b) Some time in the future there was a period when this metaphysical language contributed to it own demise resulting in the demise of this language.

If both (a) and (b) then you are saying this was an historical event. If so you have some sort of creationist explanation for language.
Wyman
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by Wyman »

There used to be one language that all humans understood that was like all animal languages except it was far more complex. Humans outgrew it. It became too complex for the average man and couldn't be translated into modern language so was forgotten and lost. It is the origin of human amnesia of our past. 40,000 years of science and history collapsed but it can all be restored, probably.
It's an intriguing idea. But if it was genetically programmed into us, as it would have to be if all humans understood it, then where did it go? We couldn't have evolved that fast. And why would it be too complex for average men to understand?
uwot
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by uwot »

cladking wrote:There used to be one language that all humans understood that was like all animal languages except it was far more complex.
It is not clear that this is even true of animals; birds and cows are thought to have 'regional accents', which raises the possibility that there are some calls which are interpreted differently and that in fact, there are different languages. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5277090.stm
There are some vocalisations which are extremely common, but even the sounds that people make in response to pain or surprise are not universal, not everyone says 'Ouch!'. I'm not an expert on this; I know that there is believed to have been a Proto Indo European language; as I remember the root word 'Dyeu' occurs in sanskrit and variations like Zeus and Deus in Greek and Latin, Tiwas in Germanic and Day in English, but I'm nor aware that there is any evidence that there ever was a language that all human beings understood. Given the isolation of different populations, it seems incredibly unlikely.
jackles
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by jackles »

eggs evolved so did chickens.
cladking
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by cladking »

Ginkgo wrote:
You seem to be saying the following:

(a) There was a time when all humans had a common understanding of the world by way of a common metaphysical language.

(b) Some time in the future there was a period when this metaphysical language contributed to it own demise resulting in the demise of this language.

If both (a) and (b) then you are saying this was an historical event. If so you have some sort of creationist explanation for language.
I don't know what you mean by "creationist". If you mean that I think a "god" created the language then in the modern sense of the word "God" then absolutely not. In the ancient sense of the word "god" then, yes, the language arose through a natural process.

Specifically I believe that virtually all animals and all of creation have language. Species must recognize one another to reproduce if nothing else. This means the animals that became human had a language as well. They looked human by our standard but were not able to pass learning from generation to generation so they lacked what Gee calls an unconscious mind. They lacked all the knowledge and thought that defines the nature of humanity so they lived and acted like animals. They weren't even especially clever animals but they did work stone and control fire.

Then a natural process, a mutation, occurred that gave rise to the ability to mnipulate language extensively. Perhaps it was the second speech center in the brain but whatever it was it allowed an individual to expand on the simple animal language and better communicate with members of his tribe. This adaptation was so successful that it spread like wildfire throughout the human race. Human language gave rise to the ability to cover almost the entire planet and to invent agriculture and cities.

But make no mistake about it. The ancient language had absolutely nothing to do with beliefs and religion and it was the vary basis of their observational science which is the exact same type of science that allowed termites and beavers to invent agriculture and air conditioned cities (each in their way). This science underlies life itself.

When the language collapsed the technology survived because learning could still be passed down but new learning was almost impossible in the absense of metaphysics. It was not until the invention of modern scientific metaphysics that human progress resumed. Keep in mind though that modern progress occurs primarily in technology and to a lesser extent in theory but relatively little occurs in application. Half the planet believes in supernatural causation and in very real ways most scientists believe in this as well caused by their inability to see things they don't understand.

We are left to argue semantics and wonder why half the world starves while the other half is unfullfilled. Angst may be something of the human conditiion but it may be greatly exaggerated by language and our inability to undersatand our past and our true natures. If it were possible to make progress in philosophy using our knowledge of scientific theory to underpin it then there might be answers someday to improve the human condition for many people. Ancient learning and knowledge could play a pivotal role in this but it would first need to be redeveloped.

Of course I could be wrong about everything but it strikes me as odd that it's only me who can be wrong and everyone else is using a confused language they don't seem to notice is confused and despite entirely different beliefs they each know they are right.

"A" and "b" are essentially correct. Each person spoke and thought in the same language so would believe the same things which reflcted the premises and axioms of that language as they were applied to nature and learning. As learning was added to the language arithmatically the language became geometrically more complex until it collapsed.
cladking
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Re: Which came first: the chicken or the egg?

Post by cladking »

Wyman wrote:
It's an intriguing idea. But if it was genetically programmed into us, as it would have to be if all humans understood it, then where did it go?
Babies still "speak" it from birth. Of course without reinforcement it is lost as they learn modern language. Even when there was a single language there were many "dialects" so a baby's ability to speak was quite limited the first several months.
And why would it be too complex for average men to understand?
Language, vocabulary, and grammar reflected all human knowledge and was virtually perfect for communication. If you didn't understand an utterance because it contained unfamiliar knowledge or because the speaker didn't understand current theory then the whole utterance would sound like gobbledty gook. No miscommunication was likely to occur.

What happened was simply that human knowledge had grown too complex for the average man to understand in its entirety. People would simply misspeak in formal situations which could lead to miscarriages of justice and worse. At first it would be the slow and dimwitted and no one cared much but as time went on it affected people everyone cared about; it was affecting the average Joe.

My guess is someone from Babel invented a new language founded on the vocabulary of the old language and disseminated it from a center of learning; "the tower". It spread very quickly everywhere and almost everyone converted other than a few scientists. From the old language people could see that the new language was commonly misunderstood and caused fragmentation in meaning and understanding; it was "confused". But this new language worked and there was no going back.
Last edited by cladking on Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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