Nietzsche, Our Contemporary

[Blaggard]

Good to know, Nietzsche was driven mad by a cancer.

Odd thing for the Telgraph to opine on though... They are hardly the sort of people you would associate with being Nietzsche supporters, I suppose that is to their credit...

[Melchior]

Well, that's awfully selfish of you. I don't have time to learn German.

Too bad. Translations cannot capture everything about the original. If you want to know about the word-play, you will have to learn German. It cannot be translated.

[Melchior]

Well, that's awfully selfish of you. I don't have time to learn German.

Consider this passage:


For the situation is this: our greatest peril lurks in the European drift toward egalitarianism, for it is this prospect which wearies us –

For the position is this: in the dwarfing and levelling of the European man lurks our greatest peril, for it is this outlook which fatigues

[Wyman]

I like the second one.

[Melchior]

I like the second one.

Here is the German, and several Enlish versions.

Denn so steht es: die Verkleinerung und Ausgleichung des europäischen Menschen birgt unsre grösste Gefahr, denn dieser Anblick macht müde…

1) For things stand thus: the reduction and equalization of the European human conceals our greatest danger, for this sight makes tired . . .

2) For the matter stands like so: the stunting and levelling of European man conceals our greatest danger, because the sight of this makes us tired . . .

3) For the situation is this: our greatest peril lurks in the European drift toward a stifling egalitarianism, for it is this prospect which wearies us

4) For the position is this: in the dwarfing and levelling of the European man lurks our greatest peril, for it is this outlook which fatigues us

5) For thus it is: the dwarfing and levelling of European man hides our greatest danger, for this sight makes weary

6) For matters stand like this: the diminution and levelling of European man hides our greatest danger, for the sight of him makes us tired.

7) For this is how things stand: the withering and levelling of European man constitutes our greatest danger, because it is a wearying sight

[Wyman]

Compared to the first one! Not as a translator; I like the idea expressed.

[Blaggard]

Hmm. Sounds to me like Nietzsche was an atheist whose only solution to "values" was God (the Ubermensch). No wonder he was so depressed.

That's actually not Nietzsche at all, he was larger than life and people said about him that he was always bombastic and happy. He had a thing about challenging people to think about things, and he said some things that might of made people think he was depressed, but in fact anyone who ever met him said he was the most lively and entertaining person they ever met, he loved conversation, he loved discussing his passions and he had a lust for life that overwhelmed a lot of people, making him popular and well liked, as he had such a good attitude, and he was always bouyant and in good spirits. This myth that Nietzsche was an angry depressed man, who always seemed to be at odds with everyone is really odd, it is possibly one of those things that happens when you imagine a personality over a work they introduce. He was nothing like people often imagine though. That said there are a lot of people who praise the man beyond his scope too, but they tend to follow the works and not the man too. It's just another side of the same coin.

And by the way the ubermensche isn't God, it is a man who has superseded the need for gods. Thus Sprach Zarathustra, the uber man is the person who has progressed beyond the need for trite religion, has realised he is more than a man, and hence is more than the Godhood or gods, which he has killed, he's hence more than a man too because he lives not by a set of divinely inspired rules, but by his own power to exist and think and do what he does for himself and his own will, not God's will or even man's will but his own.

"I have killed God."

Thus Sprach Zarathustra.

"I have killed man."

Thus Sprach Zarathustra.

I like Nietzsche's style I'm not a massive fan of his work but for his time he was certainly way, way ahead of the usual game and that makes him a person of note and philosopher of note, it doesn't make him of course more than he was and I am sure he would be depressed that people took his work so seriously, when he often said you have to learn to think for yourself and I am just as wrong as anyone else, and just as boring and insipid as all the other philosophers. I think if you learn anything about Nietzsche it is only one thing, he proclaimed that God was dead, but he never claimed he was right about anything, just that he was right about some things and the rest if you are an actual person you can learn for yourselves, and only if you are not some slave to the societal hive mind.

[Ansiktsburk]

Viellecht sollt mann Das Frohe Wissenschaft auf Deutsch lesen, ob das Deutsch nicht zu schwer ist... long time since I had to learn German... But I am really keen on trying to read some German philosophers in German.

Having read the Gay Science and Zarathustra(in Swedish) have given me a quite good picture of what I think could be meant by the Übermensch. I know I should read Beyond Good and Evil too, but does it really sketch out something that differs too much?

To describe my picture of the Übermensch, it's pretty close to Wittgenstein.

But Nietzsche is enjoyable reading. I suppose best is to read some of his original works and make your own opinion about what the Übermensch is?

[SpheresOfBalance]

Values, what a joke, the implication of inequalities!! There is only one thing that matters: We are here, a gift, and we should appreciate it, in all respects, and that's it. You disagree? Then end yours!!!

[Bernard]

Are you sure it was a benign tumor? I definitely remember reading that it was untreated syphilis that made Nietzsche mad. In any case, I'm sure you are right that his breakdown had a medical cause, not a philosophical one!

It was benign in the sense that it was slow growing.

I'd like to address the comment from someone else that N was unkind to women. First of all this was hardly reflected in his personal life, where he usually displayed great politeness and gentleness toward the opposite gender. Secondly, if in his work he recognized and made expressions (usually 'whispered') concerning flaws in femaleness correctly, it can hardly be an argument that he was unkind to women, as can it hardly be an argument that he was misanthropic because he expressed some severe distaste and criticism for certain flaws in men.

Or to put it another way, Socrates was not much of a philosophers philosopher but his ideas and approach were very infective and Plato was the man who could make them more digestible for the masses, whilst in Aristotle we have a real philosopher's philosopher. It was a perfect triad.

'Opposite sex', not 'opposite gender'.

?

[Wyman]

Here is the German, and several Enlish versions.

Denn so steht es: die Verkleinerung und Ausgleichung des europäischen Menschen birgt unsre grösste Gefahr, denn dieser Anblick macht müde…

1) For things stand thus: the reduction and equalization of the European human conceals our greatest danger, for this sight makes tired . . .

2) For the matter stands like so: the stunting and levelling of European man conceals our greatest danger, because the sight of this makes us tired . . .

3) For the situation is this: our greatest peril lurks in the European drift toward a stifling egalitarianism, for it is this prospect which wearies us

4) For the position is this: in the dwarfing and levelling of the European man lurks our greatest peril, for it is this outlook which fatigues us

5) For thus it is: the dwarfing and levelling of European man hides our greatest danger, for this sight makes weary

6) For matters stand like this: the diminution and levelling of European man hides our greatest danger, for the sight of him makes us tired.

7) For this is how things stand: the withering and levelling of European man constitutes our greatest danger, because it is a wearying sight

I go for number 6. Maybe Blaggard and Arising_UK can state their positions on whether it makes sense to give an opinion on an English sentence that translates a German sentence that I cannot read.

By the way, I always wondered what this 'Mr. Green' stands for.

[Melchior]

Here is the German, and several Enlish versions.

Denn so steht es: die Verkleinerung und Ausgleichung des europäischen Menschen birgt unsre grösste Gefahr, denn dieser Anblick macht müde…

1) For things stand thus: the reduction and equalization of the European human conceals our greatest danger, for this sight makes tired . . .

2) For the matter stands like so: the stunting and levelling of European man conceals our greatest danger, because the sight of this makes us tired . . .

3) For the situation is this: our greatest peril lurks in the European drift toward a stifling egalitarianism, for it is this prospect which wearies us

4) For the position is this: in the dwarfing and levelling of the European man lurks our greatest peril, for it is this outlook which fatigues us

5) For thus it is: the dwarfing and levelling of European man hides our greatest danger, for this sight makes weary

6) For matters stand like this: the diminution and levelling of European man hides our greatest danger, for the sight of him makes us tired.

7) For this is how things stand: the withering and levelling of European man constitutes our greatest danger, because it is a wearying sight

I go for number 6. Maybe Blaggard and Arising_UK can state their positions on whether it makes sense to give an opinion on an English sentence that translates a German sentence that I cannot read.

By the way, I always wondered what this 'Mr. Green' stands for.

Well I don't know what 'diminution' or 'levelling of European man' could possibly mean. I don't get it at all. Ausgleichen means 'to make equal'. Verkleinen means 'to make (or keep) small'. So, 'stunt' or 'stifle' make more sense there. And how does it 'hide' the danger if you can see it? The versions that have 'lurk' or 'constitute' are better in my opinion.

[Wyman]

Actually, you're right. I liked the last clause in 6 better than the last clauses in the others. But 'hide' in the first clause makes no sense in conjunction with 'sight' in the last.

[Melchior]

Actually, you're right. I liked the last clause in 6 better than the last clauses in the others. But 'hide' in the first clause makes no sense in conjunction with 'sight' in the last.

Precisely!