Is Suffering Evil in Christian Theology

[purplesoup]

I'm currently doing the AQA A Level in philosophy and we have come to the topic of "God and Evil".

The "God" in question appears to be the "God of classical theism", in particular all good and all powerful.

However the evil in question is defined in terms of suffering - in particular undue suffering, but I'm not convinced this the the classicial theism definition of evil, it sounds more Buddhist than Christian.

Can anyone comment on this? I had a quick search of "suffer" in Bible Gateway and can't see it linked with evil. The only text in which the two words appear (in the NIV anyway) is this:

1 Peter 3:17
For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

[Blaggard]

I recommend the book of Job in The Bible, and also the question of free will and it's relation to the question: if God is omnibenevolent why does God allow suffering. Also you couldn't go far wrong looking up divine command theory either as it is related.

Ever since man left the Garden of Eden he has been under a curse of original sin, a curse which Jesus then gave his life to free us from. The problem remains though is that of course if you say as a God I give all mankind the right to free will, you get stymied if you then force them to do anything, or create laws whereby men are forced say to do great rights and charity and not what they want. This is one explanation of why God allows suffering, frankly though none of them are really that credible. Suffering is not equal to evil in Christianity. If you ask me suffering is the natural state, we all suffer, and as Nietzsche said it is only through surmounting such suffering we reach the pinnacle of our own self realisation. Nietzsche wrote beyond good and evil, a treatise on religious nihilism and how the Church had become corrupt and evil and how morality should shrug off the cains of the religious and so on btw. I expect his name has come up before though.

See also the apologetics movement C.S.Lewis's views on suffering etc.

[jackles]

blags for a nobeliever you seem to have a good knowledge of the bible if you dont mind me sayin.

[purplesoup]

Well if suffering isn't evil then of course why shouldn't God allow suffering?

I see in the wikipedia entry on Christianity and evil the word "suffer" never appears:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil#Judeo-Christian

It seems people get in quite a muddle over the two concepts, people think because they are suffering that must be bad, but theology says you could be quite happy and still doing/experiencing evil, or you could be suffering and it be quite unrelated to evil.

I've read an online article on Karl Barth's views on evil and Nothingness and found it fascinating but I'd be interested if anyone had any specific online articles that they think explores the Christian view of evil further.

Blaggard - thanks for your comments, I'll take a look at Divine Command theory.

[Blaggard]

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God."

Luke 18:6

Jesus gave up his life and suffered on the cross to absolve man kind of their sin, God was pretty pissed off at the time and broke the temple also his wrath saw the dead rise from their tombs, in a sort of apocalypse prophesied by Daniel, but Jesus talked him round which is an interesting slightly schizoid place to be for the Son of God, and also being God himself... :S

"Forgive them father for they know not what they do."

Luke 23:24

Yes The Judeo-Christian tradition is quite odd, but there's nowhere in their weighty old tome that equates suffering with evil, if you read Job Satan has a discussion about God about his perfect subject Job, and says how can you see he is most perfect and wise when he has not faced suffering he has 10 children 3 wives all he could ever want is his, so God (presumably as a lesson/parable) tests Job first by killing his entire familly then by ruining his business, the moral is discussed when Job realises that even though this misery is unfair and unjust no man can see all ends and God has a purpose, Satan is pretty disgusted with Jobs piousness, queue Job getting his just reward down the line, he ends up wealthier than before with more wives than before and lives to the ripe old age of nine hundred and something. It's the oldest book in the Bible and God does not appear to be omniscient in it, much as he isn't in Genesis he seems to have gaps in his radar, for example he does not notice satan's present in his court and although he knows ultimately how Job will act, he seems to be playing a pretty horrible game with dire consequences. The fact Job remains pious to the end is more a matter I think of sheer obstinate faith, which I suppose is the point and the morale, those who remain faithful shall get their rewards, do not test the lord thy god, for only he can know all ends and so on, although he could of just given him a bum knee and made him poor, killing his entire family seems a bit ott.

The question arises in the form how can God be omnibenevolent and allow suffering in the world?

There are other questions like could God make a rock he could not lift about omnipotence.

If God knows all ends how can their be free will and so on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7chup0dZ1s

This is apt and funny too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uefDgWq5aQc

As is this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRujuE-GIY4

This one made me laugh so much I nearly dropped a lung.

[Blaggard]

blags for a nobeliever you seem to have a good knowledge of the bible if you dont mind me sayin.

Not at all hanging around various science based sites you come across a lot of trolls who indulge in creationist trolling so you pick a lot of information up, you probably don't need. But religion in general has always fascinated me so I tend to soak up a lot of it. I know an awful lot about religion in general particularly pre Christian pagan religions and even some Far East religions as well as Islam. If you think Christian fundamentalists are crazy you should try talking to Islamic fundamentalists, even those who are well educated. For example they teach evolution in ME countries, but it is seen by the fundamentalist as a sort of joke. That said fundamentalism and literalism has always been nuts, and it's ironic their are very few fundamentalist Jewish groups, the Hasidic Jews being a notable exception who believe in the Kabballah a Jewish form of mysticism which is esoteric and quite literal but whose outlook is actually very liberal. Most Jews are actually liberal about biblical interpretation seeing most of it as a sort of analogy or parable that is meant to be metaphorical, literalism is fairly unusual in Judaism as it is considered a common form of practice to write in ways whereby they can convey a message without it becoming too obvious, The Jews being commonly slave races would hence produce parables and stories that would be seen as the lesson, but would not upset their masters. Revelations is meant to be written in that same style, it's taken literally by Christians and mostly figuratively if canonical at all by Jews.

I used to know a Theology PhD Who was an agnostic, virtually an atheist, it's not actually that uncommon for atheists to know far more about Christianity than Christians, ok some of them are pretty militant but at least they know what they are talking about, the same can't be said for creationist trolls mocking evolution.

[purplesoup]

Thanks Blaggard - not really convinced from your quotes what that says about suffering. "Suffer little children" just means "let little children" surely?

Similarly with Job - that just seems to be saying if people are suffering it *doesn't* mean they are evil or have done wrong - although of course that is what Job's friends think. The bit at the beginning seems to be a bit of a joke on the part of the author - it is like he is saying "who knows why good people suffer, maybe God just had a bet with someone?"

Anyway - the point is it is nothing like the eastern view of suffering which would be a result of karmic forces. If a Buddhist believed the Buddha suffered (post-awakening) that would mean he wasn't enlightened - there is quite a close link I believe between the two in that tradition.

My point is I've not seen that link in Christianity - suffering is just a part of life, like being hungry or being lonely - it is what is means to be alive. If you were just numb and never experienced suffering (or being bored or lonely or hungry) you would have a very poor quality of life.

[jackles]

in reincarnation suffering is a sign of dept.as in you reincarnate to purge dept.dept is attachment in event status terms.

[Blaggard]

Thanks Blaggard - not really convinced from your quotes what that says about suffering. "Suffer little children" just means "let little children" surely?

Similarly with Job - that just seems to be saying if people are suffering it *doesn't* mean they are evil or have done wrong - although of course that is what Job's friends think. The bit at the beginning seems to be a bit of a joke on the part of the author - it is like he is saying "who knows why good people suffer, maybe God just had a bet with someone?"

Anyway - the point is it is nothing like the eastern view of suffering which would be a result of karmic forces. If a Buddhist believed the Buddha suffered (post-awakening) that would mean he wasn't enlightened - there is quite a close link I believe between the two in that tradition.

My point is I've not seen that link in Christianity - suffering is just a part of life, like being hungry or being lonely - it is what is means to be alive. If you were just numb and never experienced suffering (or being bored or lonely or hungry) you would have a very poor quality of life.

Yeah I think you are right about the KJV version in the term suffering, but meh the other stuff is pretty pertinent, you just need to know where to look for it and what info to disreagard as either complete bs, or non canonical or not related.

in reincarnation suffering is a sign of dept.as in you reincarnate to purge dept.dept is attachment in event status terms.

In religions which have reincarnation you are seen to be on a wheel of fate, called karma as you progress from birth to death if you are morally good you get to come back as a man again, if you are an evil sob you get to come back as a frog or as a lesser life form. The ultimate goal is to die permanently, some religions say you then go onto paradise, Buddhism says that once you have freed yourself from the chains that bind, stopped all suffering and become enlightened, the result of you escaping Earthly existence is unknown.

Have you seen The Life of Pi by the way I suspect it would be right up your alley jackles being about Eastern theology in the main and a sort of object lesson in karma.

[thedoc]

blags for a nobeliever you seem to have a good knowledge of the bible if you dont mind me sayin.

Knowledge of a particular subject does not always indicate a belief in the knowledge of that subject. This seems to be one of the main failings of a poster on another forum, she believes that if anyone has read and understands the book she is hawking, they must agree with it. Her Litmus test is that disagreement equals not reading or not understanding. Her remedy is to go back and read it again till you agree with it.