Government food, clothing and shelter

How should society be organised, if at all?

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re:

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

henry quirk wrote:"Money and value should be part of a bygone era by now"

Yes, all men (and women too!) will (one day!) be livin' in a big kumbaya world, holdin' hands and sharin' with one another freely and whatnot.

If I'm lucky: I'll be long dead before that horror show comes to pass.
As a fool and his understanding go separate ways! Not my choice!

I just have to wonder what hurt you so badly, that you have yet to debunk, as the bullshit that it was. Too long to be in such pain my friend!
The Transvaluator
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Re: Government food, clothing and shelter

Post by The Transvaluator »

Blaggard wrote:
The Transvaluator wrote:
HexHammer wrote:That would mean less money for the state, the state is greedy, the cost of these new apartments would be sky high, and wouldn't be feaseable to build.
In order to build affordable housing, the state could just print the money ex nihilo.

However, it might be better to takeover existing housing and make it more affordable.
Printing money is fine but the value of currency depends on the nations actual assets, ie how much precious metals or valuable materials it holds such as gems etc, how much disposable income it can look to, how many bonds. People are probably not aware that a countries currency is actually based on real things. If you start printing billions out when you don't have the assets all that happens is that currency is deflated to the point it is worthless, this happened after the second world war in Germany where they flooded Deutschmarks into the economy on the fly to try to prevent economic collapse: it failed, and all those who owned them in any amount went from rich man to pauper overnight. There are photographs of Germans wheeling wheel barrows filled with Deutschmarks around that were worth perhaps as we would see it a few pounds or dollars. A modern equivalent is Zimbabwe where currently its currency has a 10000% or so inflation rate, because literally they have almost nothing asset wise. Currency is a promise to the bearer that it is worth its face value it is not hence able to be devalued forever, it must ultimately represent an actual value be it gold or bonds and stocks or, 10000000 diamonds.
Printing money doesn't necessarily devalue the currency, it depends.

If it's printed debt/interest free, it doesn't.

Sure, the less rare a thing is, the less value it has, but...

Things might cost more if you print tons of money, but then there's more money to pay for them, so it evens out.

The only problem is when money is borrowed from the central bank instead of printed by the government free of charge, because the governments ends up owing the central bank a ton of money, and it eventually has to increase taxes (that's what your income tax is) to pay for that debt/interest. For the most part, these banks never had any money to begin with, it's liquidity, they're able to loan more than they have, so it's a scam, eventually our economies will collapse as a result, it's inevitable.

We probably have more than enough resources to build millions of cheap houses, the only issue is, money, but money is no issue, it's unlimited, it's only a problem if you have a gold/silver standard or you have to go to private corporations without reserves for your money. It doesn't matter if a banana costs 1 dollar or 100 dollars, you just print more 100 and 1000 dollar bills, and no 1 dollar coins.
The Transvaluator
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Re: Government food, clothing and shelter

Post by The Transvaluator »

Quirk, I'm asking for cheaper apartments, not utopia... there's a difference.

1 doesn't necessitate the other, 1 can propose more collectivism here, and more individualism there.

I'm actually fairly anti-homogenization, anti-globalization, anti-collectivism, and extremely pro 2nd amendment.

Besides, who to say?

Who's more utopian, anarchists, libertarians, or statists, authoritarians?

It depends on who you ask, one man's heaven is another's hell.

All radical ideologies and ideologues are utopianists, really, reality is what we have, which is some mix of anarchy, liberty, and state, authority, perhaps moving more in the direction of the latter than the former, for better or for worse.

In all things, balance, nay?

Of course, trying to find the rational middle is a lot more difficult than the irrational middle, or in other words, standing exactly half way in between the two loudest and most obnoxious political parties of the day.
Blaggard
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Re: Government food, clothing and shelter

Post by Blaggard »

The Transvaluator wrote:

Printing money is fine but the value of currency depends on the nations actual assets, ie how much precious metals or valuable materials it holds such as gems etc, how much disposable income it can look to, how many bonds. People are probably not aware that a countries currency is actually based on real things. If you start printing billions out when you don't have the assets all that happens is that currency is deflated to the point it is worthless, this happened after the second world war in Germany where they flooded Deutschmarks into the economy on the fly to try to prevent economic collapse: it failed, and all those who owned them in any amount went from rich man to pauper overnight. There are photographs of Germans wheeling wheel barrows filled with Deutschmarks around that were worth perhaps as we would see it a few pounds or dollars. A modern equivalent is Zimbabwe where currently its currency has a 10000% or so inflation rate, because literally they have almost nothing asset wise. Currency is a promise to the bearer that it is worth its face value it is not hence able to be devalued forever, it must ultimately represent an actual value be it gold or bonds and stocks or, 10000000 diamonds.
Printing money doesn't necessarily devalue the currency, it depends.

If it's printed debt/interest free, it doesn't.

Sure, the less rare a thing is, the less value it has, but...

Things might cost more if you print tons of money, but then there's more money to pay for them, so it evens out.

The only problem is when money is borrowed from the central bank instead of printed by the government free of charge, because the governments ends up owing the central bank a ton of money, and it eventually has to increase taxes (that's what your income tax is) to pay for that debt/interest. For the most part, these banks never had any money to begin with, it's liquidity, they're able to loan more than they have, so it's a scam, eventually our economies will collapse as a result, it's inevitable.

We probably have more than enough resources to build millions of cheap houses, the only issue is, money, but money is no issue, it's unlimited, it's only a problem if you have a gold/silver standard or you have to go to private corporations without reserves for your money. It doesn't matter if a banana costs 1 dollar or 100 dollars, you just print more 100 and 1000 dollar bills, and no 1 dollar coins.

Well yes but both the US and UK are off the gold standard and have been since the early 1900s, and so the situation is different to how it was in say Nazi Germany, now the banks are floating fake money or liquid investments around based on something that is imaginary, the whole futures and stocks thing has muddied the process so much that it only takes several bad or toxic investments to create a downturn and then the market brokers are all running with the bulls.

Ultimately a country has actual value and its credit rating reflects that as should its currency then reflect an actual real thing and in the main it does or at least it used to. A budget deficit in trillions doesn't help, it's an imaginary slight of hand these days, money is a promise to pay the bearer, what it can't do though is float in imagination land forever without risking serious economic deflation and or a toxic market. And that is precisely what happened with the housing bubble, credit will only get you so far, ultimately the commodity you have be it a banana or a mansion must represent the value you are placing on it or you are going to pay somewhere down the line...

The point is resources to build houses are copper, aluminium and a shed load of clay, all of these resources are finite and so have great value. You could print 20 billion dollars and float it but it would not dent the already sizeable equity in the main, something has to cost something based on a value, if it does not represent it's value then shit is going to hit the fan. It's a lesson clearly the banks need to learn before they float out billions of imaginary loans on money they don't actually have.

How many banks or credit facilities are going to float a lone with 0% interest, aside from Muslim banks? Usury being illegal in most Muslim countries as it once was in Europe.

China are making out like bandits at least. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

"I'm asking for cheaper apartments, not utopia... there's a difference."

Seems to me you're asking for a helluva lot more than just cheap housing...and: 'utopia' (as in 'ideal community') is exactly what you seem to be after.

But, hey, I could be exaggeratin'.

#

"1 can propose more collectivism here, and more individualism there"

Can't see how that works...the communitarian impulse driving many and the impulse for self-definition and -determination driving few seem in opposition...how do you propose to bring the two together?

#

"Who's more utopian, anarchists, libertarians, or statists, authoritarians?"

From where I stand: communitarians, all...that is: all of 'em advocate for (their own versions of) 'utopia'.

Poop on the lot.

#

"...trying to find the rational middle is a lot more difficult than the irrational middle..."

It's all irrational.

Best a body can do is divorce him- or her-self from the 'culture' (to the extent that he or she can) and just get on with it.

The world (in this context: cultures, philosophies, ideologies, etc.) has an inertia...the vector was set ages ago...all a body can do is ride it out.

That's not to say folks shouldn't chase the unicorn (if that's what they wanna do), but unicorn chasers have to understand some folks would rather be fishin'...let the fisher-folk be.

Great example: I frown on the Affordable Care Act here in the States...not because it's an ungainly, poorly constructed, piece of legislation but solely because it directs 'me' (under threat of penalty) to devote my resources in ways I deem unnecessary. Take out the personal mandate and I couldn't give flip about the ACA (I don't wanna chase unicorns; I wanna fish).
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Government food, clothing and shelter

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

How about to hell with the machine, and back to a simpler time, where everyone lives off the land? HQ you should like this?
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

"HQ you should like this?"

Can't see where I even hinted at such a thing.
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SpheresOfBalance
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Re:

Post by SpheresOfBalance »

henry quirk wrote:"HQ you should like this?"

Can't see where I even hinted at such a thing.
Who said anything about a hint, I said you should like it, but then you couldn't see yourself as exclusive, as everyone would be self reliant.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

Ah, I see.
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