Why Shouldn't Putin Take Over the Crimea?

[bobevenson]

Lol one must admire your political naïvety bob.

What are you talking about? Putin was able to get the entire Russian legislature to fully endorse his plan (something Obama couldn't do in a million years), and will accomplish his plan without firing a single shot. If that's not political genius, I don't know what is. And the rest of the world won't have the balls to do a thing about it (even after making all the stupid threats they knew they couldn't and wouldn't keep).

[bobevenson]

1) Crimea was part of Russia until the Soviet Union made it part of Ukraine.
2) Crimea is basically Russian in terms of language, religion and culture.
3) Crimea and its Black Sea Fleet base in Sevastopol is essential to Russia's defense.
4) The Russia-friendly head of Ukraine was illegally forced out of office.
5) Why shouldn't Russia intervene?

[Blaggard]

1) Crimea was part of Russia until the Soviet Union made it part of Ukraine.
2) Crimea is basically Russian in terms of language, religion and culture.
3) Crimea and its Black Sea Fleet base in Sevastopol is essential to Russia's defense.
4) The Russia-friendly head of Ukraine was illegally forced out of office.
5) Why shouldn't Russia intervene?

Er because such old fashioned imperialism belongs in a by gone age that probably wants you back bob.

You'll be saying England deserved its vast global franchise and imperialist empire next...

Largest empire in world history, largest ego in world history, largest fall from grace in world history, largely forgotten. largely because we don't act as apologists in my neck of the woods for appalingly selfish, self serving foreign policy, because we are not: and I want to make this clear, slaves to the idiots in the Houses of Parliament... Ferking remtards can all go ferk themselves for all anyone cares in this country, last election less than a third of the people voted, which means the government we now have represents such a small minority of English opinion that it is not even funny.

But suffice to say and I refer the honourable gentleman to the arguments given some moments ago, Putin has put his foot in his mouth.

[bobevenson]

All I'm saying is that Russia has a strategic rationale for what it's doing, as opposed to the U.S. with no rationale at all, and making American taxpayers pay through the nose and American soldiers with their entire body.

[Blaggard]

All I'm saying is that Russia has a strategic rationale for what it's doing, as opposed to the U.S. with no rationale at all, and making American taxpayers pay through the nose and American soldiers with their entire body.

Russia is playing a dangerous diplomatic game which will probably end up biting it in the ass. America are at least rid of that cretin Bush and his neocon loonies.

[bobevenson]

All I'm saying is that Russia has a strategic rationale for what it's doing, as opposed to the U.S. with no rationale at all, and making American taxpayers pay through the nose and American soldiers with their entire body.

Russia is playing a dangerous diplomatic game...

As a former KGB officer, Putin is used to playing dangerous games, unlike his current adversaries.

[Blaggard]

All I'm saying is that Russia has a strategic rationale for what it's doing, as opposed to the U.S. with no rationale at all, and making American taxpayers pay through the nose and American soldiers with their entire body.

Russia is playing a dangerous diplomatic game...

As a former KGB officer, Putin is used to playing dangerous games, unlike his current adversaries.

Yeah I am well aware of his past but as I said, we shall see, atm he seems bent on annoying not only the Western world but even the Crimean people, for very meagre ends. I don't think you can laud Yeltsin any more than you could Bush: they are two sides of a very remedial political coin.

[bobevenson]

What's this so-called Crimea problem anyway? The Crimea Peninsula actually belonged to Russia as recently as 1954, at which time Khrushchev symbolically "gave" the landmass to Ukraine. Let's face it, Ukraine doesn't really have any claim to Crimea, and Russia historically has had its military bases on Crimea with full control of them. If you add to this the fact that the Crimean people are themselves Russian and the Ukrainians are in political turmoil, all the naysayer nations of the world don't have a leg to stand on.

[Arising_uk]

What's this so-called Crimea problem anyway? The Crimea Peninsula actually belonged to Russia as recently as 1954, at which time Khrushchev symbolically "gave" the landmass to Ukraine. Let's face it, Ukraine doesn't really have any claim to Crimea, and Russia historically has had its military bases on Crimea with full control of them. If you add to this the fact that the Crimean people are themselves Russian and the Ukrainians are in political turmoil, all the naysayer nations of the world don't have a leg to stand on.

Once again your black/white, cowboy and indian Yank view of the world is too simple. The ethnic Russians are about 60% of the population and most speak both Russian and Ukrainian, so what would you do with the other 40%? Especially since 20% of them are the original Crimeans, i.e. the Tartars who Stalin deported to Uzbekistan before importing the Russians and are only now beginning to return and are pretty loathe to be ruled by them again, as are the other 20% Ukrainians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics

It's not the military bases that are the strategic issue, its that Crimea is Russias only ice-free port. If you're going to argue that military bases are claim enough then apparently America has the right to many countries around the world.

It's this political turmoil that Putin is worried about as at base it was about the President running the country for his and his cronies own benefit, to the tune of about 70 billion going missing apparently, and popular demonstration to unseat such people is the last thing he wants to become popular amongst the former Soviet States as it would threaten his attempts to form a federation and keep the USSR alive in some fashion and may give some of his own people ideas.

It is true however that some unsavoury elements have raised their heads in the Ukraine and now have some political say and that overthrowing 'democratically' elected govts in this way is not the way to go, un-electing them is, but thats not so easy in the systems that were allowed to arise after the collapse of the former USSR, as the West and its bankers promoted a free for all laissez faire economic model rather than a staged and planned transition, as such oligarchy and criminality took charge and the people truly suffered. Its why they actually like Putin as they see him as a saviour from the chaos that was before.

The reason why the EU is worried about Putins current approach is that the idea that one nation can invade another due to a large common speaking ethnic population was exactly Hitlers justification and that if allowed to get away with no sanctions he may well try this everywhere in his federation if any of them look like trying to change their corrupt leaders. Its also the first obvious challenge to the ideals of a united democratic Europe.

Of course theres pretty much bugger all we can do about it but then we should have done something when he did the same thing to Georgia and because we didn't he was emboldened to act as he is.

Funnily enough the UK could put a fair bit of pressure on as London is awash with the oligarchs, their money, their houses and their kids and we could freeze the lot but fat chance of that happening as it'd dent the Tory supporters pockets big-style.

Still, hopefully this'll accelerate the EU into becoming a unified power with all that involves politically, economically and militarily rather than keep relying upon NATO and the Americans.

[bobevenson]

Crimea is culturally, linguistically and culturally tied to Russia. Since 1954, Crimea has been an artificial part of Ukraine. I'm surprised that Russia has gone along with the status quo since the dissolution of the Soviet Union. It should have taken back Crimea immediately. The recent unlawful coup d'état in Ukraine, which threatened this status quo, resulted in Russia's rational preemption.

[Arising_uk]

Not quite a normal coup d'état as its only recently that a populace has realised that by essentially disobeying and occupying they can change corrupt presidents despite them claiming democratic right, I think they are calling it 'democratic coup d'état' now-a-days.

The only thing that the people in Crimea were threatened with was closer links to the EU and hopefully a concomitant improvement in governance and law but looks like war or at least civil war is on the cards, another Chechnya I'd guess with the Tartars once again being ethically cleansed and the Ukrainians along with them. You are ignoring that most of the democratically elected Ukranian govt is still in place, only a corrupt President was ousted.

Putin may have loved to have done what you say, as ex-kgb he'd just love to take all the satellites back but even he understood that it would put the kibosh on his plan for the federation he's trying to build. Of course its rational to him as he cannot have the chance that such things as good governance and real democracy take root in the former soviet states as his own people might start getting ideas and no way can he lose the only ice-free port Russia has, although its a pretty moot point as Ukraine had no intention of doing any such thing and in the pretty near future, thanks to global warming, I guess his ports may be fairly ice-free anyway. All this is about is him seeing the chance to annex it without the chance of any real opposition and the support of his populace as Crimea does have a strong place in the Russian psyche with its links to the history of the USSR. My take is that the EU needs to up its game in the face of a resurgent Russia, time to become one entity, one tax and welfare system, one passport, one parliament and legislature, one military, one legal system and start scraping the nations or at least lessen their influence.

That you side with Putin in this matter is no surprise to me as you hate democracy and love oligarchies and dictatorships as you are the anti-baptist and such things suit such as you.

[The Voice of Time]

The Crimean people are Russians, and if they were able to vote on it, would elect to become part of Russia again.

We don't know for certain, but likely "yes". However, you are wrong that Crimean people are "Russians", in fact Crimea wouldn't had as many Russians today if it wasn't for Stalin who relocated people there... it's like the Israel-Palestine conflict over again, just substitute The Zionists for the Stalinists/Putinists.

This pie should explain to you where you are wrong and greatly generalize about the Crimean people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distr ... a_2001.png

[bobevenson]

Not quite a normal coup d'état as its only recently that a populace has realised that by essentially disobeying and occupying they can change corrupt presidents despite them claiming democratic right, I think they are calling it 'democratic coup d'état' now-a-days.

Your honor, we were not trying to illegally overthrow the government, it was a democratic coup d'état, not your run-of-the-mill coup d'état.

[Arising_uk]

This pie should explain to you where you are wrong and greatly generalize about the Crimean people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distr ... a_2001.png

I wouldn't bother as boob has an incredible selective reading ability and his confirmation bias is second to none.

[Arising_uk]

Your honor, we were not trying to illegally overthrow the government, it was a democratic coup d'état, not your run-of-the-mill coup d'état.

Which legal entity would you be able to appeal to?

A coup d'état(a good french term) does not normally cover what is currently happening around the world in certain nations, that you wished to use the term to propagandise against the Ukrainians was what I was concerned with challenging. You are ignoring that the bulk of the democratically elected officials are still in place but then clarity of discussion is not your aim is it. Mainly you are just trolling from the safety of your cosy world, basically an idle, work-shy misanthrope.