freedom and punishment....

[bobevenson]

Thank you Bobevenson.

I agree...it doesn't help that US prisions are privatized.

I must disagree with you on that point. Everything should be privatized; the government should not own, operate, support or promote anything. The only proper function of government is social integration, providing the necessary oversight.

[R2D2]

Yes you're right but that will never happen here in the US. Any attempt for social programs people scream
communism.

[Skip]

Social integration. Good effing luck to any government trying to make that happen!

[Wyman]

There is another reason for jails besides punishment. Here's a real world problem:

Young man is convicted of burglary for the fourth time. Obviously, this comes after about twelve arrests, since the conviction rate is low. He is put on probation and/or given short stints in jail pre-probation on the prior cases. On probation, he is ordered into drug treatment and also receives treatment in jail. He gets back on drugs and commits the burglary.

Ask yourself what you would do if he lived in your community, where you are a property owner and are raising a family.

Jail is often a way to banish people from a community after many failed attempts at rehabilitation.

The flaw in your premises (most of which I agree with) is that treatment for drugs and accompanying anti-social behavior actually works. For many, it does not, and your arguments against placing them in jail therefore fail. The old comeback - 'then let him (the criminal) live in your neighborhood' - then applies. It is easy to send him back out into some desolate city neighborhood that you wouldn't dare drive through. What if you lived in that neighborhood, though? Or do you think that the people who live in those neighborhoods do not deserve to be protected?

[bobevenson]

You may have to restrict the freedom of people who are a threat to society in some way, and segregate them, but not put them behind bars.

[R2D2]

I did not say there should be no prisons. I say we need better ones, ones that do not dehumanize individuals. The penal system makes monsters and harder criminals.

[The Voice of Time]

Social integration. Good effing luck to any government trying to make that happen!

Not reading the rest of the discussion, I just have to jump in to say that many governments have successfully integrated parts of their societies into a whole, although most people do it by themselves and all you need is an environment in which they will do it by themselves.

The problem is that you always just hear about the problems, never the success stories. You never hear about the African who becomes a doctor in the US totally integrated with the rest of society despite coming from a totally different country, or the Pakistani who became a parliament member in Norway (if I knew exactly it was Pakistan, then this would be a true story, but I'm unsure which arab/african country the individual was from), and so forth... of course you do hear about the parliament member, because that's a special position, but in general, you don't hear about the people who succeed, and if you hear about them, you don't take note of them, because people obsess more easily about problems than about successes. What has succeeded is cool, it's okay, it works, the problem however is what we can go and complain about the whole day.

[Wyman]

So what are your suggestions, bobeveanson and R2D2? Penal colonies?

[R2D2]

I don't any suggestions...we are not a progressive enough society yet for change...sad

[Impenitent]

Escape from New York

-Imp