Is God good ?

[HexHammer]

Isn't he supposed to be omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipresent hence anything God does is good by definition, besides he said so and he also said he can not lie.

That's the preception, but that's different from reality.

[Blaggard]

Isn't he supposed to be omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipresent hence anything God does is good by definition, besides he said so and he also said he can not lie.

That's the preception, but that's different from reality.

I don't personally believe he exists, and so whatever reality is merely the result of brain storming sessions of those so called demagogues aka Rabbis, Priests, Pastors,
Prophets, leaders, liars, Politicians, control freaks etc. ;P

[Skip]

I'm trying to understand why half the planet seem to say that God is good.

If you're an unbeliever, you will never understand it, as long as you keep asking the irrelevant question that is suggested by the theist propaganda. This is what I've been trying to tell you. They don't believe god is good. They repeat the ritual lines, because they're afraid. It's like having an abusive father: you don't tell him he's rubbish at the job; you pretend to believe whatever the hell he wants to say about himself, because that's your only chance of not being hit.
People lie. A lot. Religion is the subject they lie more about, even, than money and love.

One suggested that the reason most people consider God to be good, is because most people are very stupid. But this explanation is just to simple. Lower intelligence might be a reason for a very low percentage of the people, put most people that consider God to be good - does not have lower intelligence.

No, that's the reason they believe there is a god in the first place. The smart, evil ones who sell them a god don't believe it themselves, they just scare the stupid majority into unquestioning obedience.

The one thing I find hard to understand is those few clever and earnest theologians who twist their minds into knots, trying to make sense of all that nonsense.

[solitair]

Have you actually understood what the Aschen vid was about? Did you understand which psychological phenomenom that was at play? Do you understand the concept of atheism vs theism? It seems you don't understand the basic nature of it all.

An individual under strong influence from more than 3 other people, starts to conform with the majority... like i said the individuals on planet earth don't conform with the majority of planet earth when it comes to religion. If they did, religion would be disappearing... and it is not. Nazism grew in Germany during world war II, and died after... these waves go though our societies, but religions like Christianity go up and down driven by other forces. Fear and poverty is for example much more dominant than the individuals need to conform with the masses when it comes to religion. Religion is also more private and many people don't even have to tell anybody what they believe in.

It is simply not possible to say that people believe in God because they need to conform with the majority. That is just ridiculous. If people were that influenced by the majority when it comes to religion, there would be no religion anymore because religion is clearly here in spite of the majority. Im not saying that individuals dont conform with the masses when it comes to religion, just that it does not happen on a scale that would have any influence on what we are talking about. Fear of death etc can explain much more of why religions is still strong, but Ashc is just not that relevant to these questions.

He was a gestalt physiologist, and a social psychologist - and i have not read anything by him that explains what you seem to be trying to link together with religion. But maybe i just don't understand what you are telling me. You also just write a few lines, so it is hard to get what your points are.

[Blaggard]

Have you actually understood what the Aschen vid was about? Did you understand which psychological phenomenom that was at play? Do you understand the concept of atheism vs theism? It seems you don't understand the basic nature of it all.

An individual under strong influence from more than 3 other people, starts to conform with the majority... like i said the individuals on planet earth don't conform with the majority of planet earth when it comes to religion. If they did, religion would be disappearing... and it is not. Nazism grew in Germany during world war II, and died after... these waves go though our societies, but religions like Christianity go up and down driven by other forces. Fear and poverty is for example much more dominant than the individuals need to conform with the masses when it comes to religion. Religion is also more private and many people don't even have to tell anybody what they believe in.

It is simply not possible to say that people believe in God because they need to conform with the majority. That is just ridiculous. If people were that influenced by the majority when it comes to religion, there would be no religion anymore because religion is clearly here in spite of the majority. Im not saying that individuals dont conform with the masses when it comes to religion, just that it does not happen on a scale that would have any influence on what we are talking about. Fear of death etc can explain much more of why religions is still strong, but Ashc is just not that relevant to these questions.

He was a gestalt physiologist, and a social psychologist - and i have not read anything by him that explains what you seem to be trying to link together with religion. But maybe i just don't understand what you are telling me. You also just write a few lines, so it is hard to get what your points are.

No people believe in religion any religion for that matter because like all human beings they fear death, they fear not knowing how the Earth can kill people simply by being the Earth, and they fear such natural phenomena to such an extent that they have to in ignorance make up a reason for their lack of knowledge, and hence we have ceremonial burial which leads to spiritualism which leads hence to all of the major religions. People don't believe in God or any gods for any reasonable reason, they do so because they are afraid.

Thor is the God of lightning, Freya the mother of fertility, Aegir is the god of the ocean, Poseiden is likewise, Athena the God of wisdom and war and subtelty, the norns are the fates, the fates are what drives all mankind and we cannot escape them. The Dagdha is the all father of the naturalist spiritual beliefs of the Celts, which are not of this Earth but very much drive nature, so that the Celts have to obey cycles LLugh silverhand is the god of skill and dexterity, The Morrigan stands over battle fields tempting men to glory, the Navaho believe in ancestor spirits and spirits of animals that guide us, the South Americans likewise have animists beleifs. The Swahili speaking races believe in a one God a mountain called Mount Kenya or as you know Kilimanjiro. The Chinese are animists, the Japanese are animists like the Celts believing in spirits in all things, and so on it's all just a natural consequence of nature, there's no reason to religion but there is of course a reason for belief in a supernatural power whatever it may be, and all of them be it Judaism or Taoism are driven by the same need to know why the world is what it is and the eternal questions of meaning, existence, and death.

[solitair]

No people believe in religion any religion for that matter because like all human beings they fear death, they fear not knowing how the Earth can kill people simply by being the Earth, and they fear such natural phenomena to such an extent that they have to in ignorance make up a reason for their lack of knowledge, ...

Hmmm... maybe so scared that they don't want to think about such questions as if God is good or not ? They just need him to be good - so much that they make him good even the bible clearly portray good as an horrible serial killer ?

This is the same principle from child psychology where children defend their abusive parents - because the child desperately need to have a loving mother, so the child make the parent in to a loving parent in their own mind, by eliminating/sacrificing themselves .... hmmm ... so later in life, the child actually thinks certain abusive qualities in a spouse is ok, because their abusive parents were like that. A defect in their thinking that is now transferred to their own children maybe... and so on... hmmm

interesting - so God becomes good - in the peoples minds - through fear over several generations.

Is this correct ?

[HexHammer]

No people believe in religion any religion for that matter because like all human beings they fear death, they fear not knowing how the Earth can kill people simply by being the Earth, and they fear such natural phenomena to such an extent that they have to in ignorance make up a reason for their lack of knowledge, ...

People growing up in religious societies will have a greater chance of being religious, than a person growing up in a non religious society, becaue of the groupthink principle.

Explain how there are newcomers to chrisitianity in Denmark when priests no longer believe in Hell? Just believe in god and you go to Heaven.

{Edited by iMod]

[Blaggard]

No people believe in religion any religion for that matter because like all human beings they fear death, they fear not knowing how the Earth can kill people simply by being the Earth, and they fear such natural phenomena to such an extent that they have to in ignorance make up a reason for their lack of knowledge, ...

You don't know what you are talking about.

People growing up in religious societies will have a greater chance of being religious, than a person growing up in a non religious society, becaue of the groupthink principle.

It is basically from day one been fear of death fear of things men can not explain and a hegemony that wants to rule common man with so called esoteric wisdom. No offence Hex but this is not something that comes from nowhere this is basic anthropology.

Explain how there are newcomers to chrisitianity in Denmark when priests no longer believe in Hell? Just believe in god and you go to Heaven.

Because people are afraid of death, afraid of having no explanation of meaning in their life, and afraid that this lack of knowledge will somehow prejudice what they believe will happen when they die. People cannot accept that death is the end that consciousness just ends, that they are aware and then just not, they can't see why the Earth seems to have forces that kill, that seem arbitrary such as earthquakes, lightning, feirce creatures who will gnaw their life out of them, they never have and hence the whole ceremonial burial thing started up to prepare people for an afterlife, it was then expanded to explain what these forces they could not perceive were and why death was not the end, and what such benevolent gods or spirits reasons were, this then lead to organised religion.


In modern times the reasons for believing are somewhat different although really they have not changed much.

{Edited by iMod]

[solitair]

People growing up in religious societies will have a greater chance of being religious, than a person growing up in a non religious society, becaue of the groupthink principle.

Based on my own life, people i know, it seems that the daughter of a priest grows up in rebellion... more often than in obedience. But never mind... let me just clarify.

Your arguments seem shallow... it is like i said that people living in parts of Africa starve to death because of the group thinking principle. Sure they have some problems not being able to think outside their groups norms, but the main reason they starve to death is because of the climate man... they have no freaking water...

The main reason people turn religious is not because of a group thinking principle, it never was the reason - and such a statement is so self contradicting that i am surprised that you would say it. We grow up with science telling us about evolution etc. the modern world is denying religion completely... so if you were correct there would be no religion anymore - due to this group thinking principle your keep referring to. You seem to be consistently ignore this logic in all your posts, even you refer to it at the same time. Confusing...

You seem to say that because of the group thinking principle people turn religious ? what group is bigger with most influence ? the religious part of any modern society or the none religious ?

[solitair]

In modern times the reasons for believing are somewhat different although really they have not changed much.

What are these reasons - past and present -and what are the differences that you are referring to ?

[HexHammer]

People growing up in religious societies will have a greater chance of being religious, than a person growing up in a non religious society, becaue of the groupthink principle.

The facts are that the daughter of a priest grows up in rebellion... more often than in obedience. But never mind... let me just clarify.

Your arguments seem shallow... it is like i said that people living in parts of Africa starve to death because of the group thinking principle. Sure they have some problems not being able to think outside their groups norms, but the main reason they starve to death is because of the climate man... they have no freaking water...

The main reason people turn religious is not because of a group thinking principle, it never was the reason - and such a statement is so self contradicting that i am surprised that you would say it. We grow up with science telling us about evolution etc. the modern world is denying religion completely... so if you were correct there would be no religion anymore - due to the group thinking principle.

You seem to say that because of the group thinking principle people turn religious ? what group is bigger with most influence ? the religious part of any modern society or the none religious ?

The daughter will most likely not be religious because she got atheist friends, so yearh, that's not a religious society, what I was talking about is Asmish people, unelighten people in underdeveloped countries if the religion is strong, then people will most likely become religious.

USA are VERY religious and are considerd the zenith of modern countries in the modern world. They even ONLY elect presidents that is chatholic.

{Edited by iMod]

[solitair]

The daughter will most likely not be religious because she got atheist friends, so yearh, that's not a religious society, what I was talking about is Asmish people, unelighten people in underdeveloped countries if the religion is strong, then people will most likely become religious. USA are VERY religious and are considerd the zenith of modern countries in the modern world. They even ONLY elect presidents that is chatholic.

Nr1: You say that people growing up in religious society - and by that you specify example - "Amish people, unelighten people in underdeveloped countries" will most likely become religious.
Nr2: You say USA are VERY religious and are considered the Zenith of modern countries in the modern world. You go further an mention that USA ONLY elects a president that is catholic.

Your argument is on one hand that people turn religious because of group influence, where you mention that USA is a very religious country. You argue that people in the USA turn religious because of this group pressure. You explain to me that Im wrong when i say that the majority of influence in the US is not religious, and argue that it is. You argue that it is so strong that it is only possible for a person to become president if he is catholic.

When you are challenged on this, by me referring to the daughter of a priest, you say that she did not turn that religious because she had atheist friends, and therefor are not in a religious society. You tell us that a religious society (per your definition) is a society like the Amish people. You go further and specify that you definition of such society is located withing an underdeveloped countrie, so you are referring to Amish people in other countries than the US, because the US is NOT an underdeveloped country. Futher the US is a country where almost all people have at least a few friends that are atheist.

So you are arguing to contradicting arguments at the same time where you are trying to tell us that all people in the USA are exposed to this group pressure that is to explain why most Americans are religious, believing that god is Good - at the same time as you are denying this when challenged, telling us that the daughter of the priest - did not turn religious because she had atheist friends, and clearly do not belong to such society where there is such group pressure that makes people religious, like the Amish society in underdeveloped countries.

The moderator have deleted some of your remarks - (thank you iMod) - so not all of this is available anymore, but the fact is that there is nothing to support that the major reason why people in the US are or turn religious is because of group pressure. Now if you are going to - again start some argument to the contrary, please give us some facts this time. And please - facts are not that people are stupid, reason like children, are unable to reason with logic etc. those are just your own personal perceptions of people... and not relevant at all to this conversation.

[HexHammer]

Group think is subconciousness at play, in prehistoric times when we were but mere reptiles, we didn't have elaborate language, but mere sounds and gestures, to keep people in check a mere harsh look could (and still can) keep people in place, some will even voulenteerily abide the leader and take the leaders side, even if the leader is unreasonable and cruel, then some will blindly follow.
This will explain the Vietnam horrors where normal law abiding citizen committed horrorfying warattrocities.

Children are very open for subconcious suggestion, that's why they love their country where they grew up, love the culture, etc, but ofcause some don't care, others abhore it.

Youre preature's daughter example may be explained by 2 things, she's not in a closed society but has other influence of atheists, and/or science that doesn't find proof of a god.
Else growing up with religion day in day out, can be too much for some and they end up disliking all this religious stuff, or other interests pulls the attention away from the religion.

I havn't said group think is the ONLY reason, it's also that people are very naive, and/or have a insatiable narcissistic side that needs "attention" from someone that can always be with them and love them (as they imagine their god does), or in the naive hope of giving them salvation from their sins or sickness, there are endless of mentally ill reasons.

[Blaggard]

People growing up in religious societies will have a greater chance of being religious, than a person growing up in a non religious society, becaue of the groupthink principle.

The facts are that the daughter of a priest grows up in rebellion... more often than in obedience. But never mind... let me just clarify.

Your arguments seem shallow... it is like i said that people living in parts of Africa starve to death because of the group thinking principle. Sure they have some problems not being able to think outside their groups norms, but the main reason they starve to death is because of the climate man... they have no freaking water...

The main reason people turn religious is not because of a group thinking principle, it never was the reason - and such a statement is so self contradicting that i am surprised that you would say it. We grow up with science telling us about evolution etc. the modern world is denying religion completely... so if you were correct there would be no religion anymore - due to the group thinking principle.

You seem to say that because of the group thinking principle people turn religious ? what group is bigger with most influence ? the religious part of any modern society or the none religious ?

The daughter will most likely not be religious because she got atheist friends, so yearh, that's not a religious society, what I was talking about is Asmish people, unelighten people in underdeveloped countries if the religion is strong, then people will most likely become religious.

USA are VERY religious and are considerd the zenith of modern countries in the modern world. They even ONLY elect presidents that is chatholic.

{Edited by iMod]

Er no they don't only elect Catholics in fact in America Protestantism has a far bigger congregation albeit broken up into hundreds of sects, they don't elect or tend to elect athiests it's true, where as in the UK we elect atheists and probably have done several times to represent us even if they had to go through the motions of appearing to have some religion. It's a very odd world we live in.

[Blaggard]

In modern times the reasons for believing are somewhat different although really they have not changed much.

What are these reasons - past and present -and what are the differences that you are referring to ?

The same as the earlier reasons minus the thunder and lightning and earth quakes stuff. People look for social groups they have stuff in common with, they also still fear death, so for some people religion provides comfort, for others it doesn't because it's usually accompanied by a shed load of dogmatic asshattery. And there's obviously also a shed load of indoctrination of children going on too.