Free will

[Ginkgo]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean can you give me an example?

I will try;

If something, either a concept or object, exists and is perceived, either subjective or objective, it must have some quantity. (with itself being at least 1)
You can't hold an opinion about a concept that is not existing, but if you hold a opinion about a concept, let it be an unimaginable one, you still give it some value.
Everything that is recognized will have some value, even 'not of any importance', is a value.

You can't see a tree, and not notice it.
If you see a tree, you give it a value.
If you give something a value, it is perceived.
If it is perceived, it has value.

I think I see what you are getting at. However, before I get into that, could you explain how this relates to my quote in relation to institutions.

[Perceiving exists.]

I think I see what you are getting at. However, before I get into that, could you explain how this relates to my quote in relation to institutions.

All i'm saying is i agree with you, an institution is at least a concept so it cannot have no value at all what so ever if it is noticed, even if that is ever so slightly or beyond awareness.
Can you be aware of something you are unaware of and not be aware of doing so?
If its concept isn't noticed at all it has no value because it doesn't exist to the one not noticing it.

(i should put this in every post.. i'm always wrong, unless you disagree)

[Ginkgo]

I think I see what you are getting at. However, before I get into that, could you explain how this relates to my quote in relation to institutions.

All i'm saying is i agree with you, an institution is at least a concept so it cannot have no value at all what so ever if it is noticed, even if that is ever so slightly or beyond awareness.
Can you be aware of something you are unaware of and not be aware of doing so?
If its concept inst noticed at all it has no value because it doesn't exist to the one not noticing it.

(i should put this in every post.. i'm always wrong, unless you disagree)

Ok. In other words, you are saying that most people in our society are aware of a large number of institutional values in relation to a large number of institutions with our society. Awareness, in this instance meaning more or less, depending upon the individuals level of awareness.

For example,with society, it would be a majority of people of voting age who would claim they understand the values of the Republican Party. As to whether they agree with these perceived values is of course a different matter.

[Perceiving exists.]

For example,with society, it would be a majority of people of voting age who would claim they understand the values of the Republican Party. As to whether they agree with these perceived values is of course a different matter.

"they understand the values"

I dont think anyone can disagree with their own given value, yet that value may be in contradiction to the value given by the value itself, thus agreeing or disagreeing, with for example claims made by a 'Republican Party'.

But still, is it because they want to give it that value, or do they want to give it so because they can't do any different? And what does this mean in relation to free will?
I think trying to prove free will is as impossible as proving a complete moot of all actual vice and verse (and in between etc. see the raindrop post for what i mean)

[Ginkgo]

For example,with society, it would be a majority of people of voting age who would claim they understand the values of the Republican Party. As to whether they agree with these perceived values is of course a different matter.

"they understand the values"

I dont think anyone can disagree with their own given value, yet that value may be in contradiction to the value given by the value itself, thus agreeing or disagreeing, with for example claims made by a 'Republican Party'.

But still, is it because they want to give it that value, or do they want to give it so because they can't do any different? And what does this mean in relation to free will?
I think trying to prove free will is as impossible as proving a complete moot of all actual vice and verse (and in between etc. see the raindrop post for what i mean)

Yes, you are right. They think they understand the values.

As far as Bob is concerned, I see him as trying to create some 'wiggle room' by claiming that institutional values exist 'out there' - not actually being attached to any physical institutions (as he seems to put it). Now this may well be true, but ultimately it doesn't work because in the end the values had to come from somewhere to begin with, and where they came from was actual institutions.

If this is what he is doing then it is a good try on his part. However, it is not possible to create a political party (Energy Party) and not espouse some values in the process. As to where these values end up and who they end up with is not really the issue. The problem is that you cannot create a political party and think there is no value added response created somewhere.

[Perceiving exists.]

Yes, you are right. They think they understand the values.

Who is to blame for misunderstanding? and does it matter matter once the misunderstanding is understood?
(Regarding that misunderstanding and thus not prevailing other misunderstandings.)
Still fact remains, the value you give to something is your opinion and is never 'wrong', despite its possible misinterpretation.
(Of course, 'actual' size and color are different from subjective views, like beauty and the like.)

[Arising_uk]

Are you free? Can any human being truly be free? Why or why not?

Be nice if you actually stated your opinion. As so far all your posts sound like you want others to do your homework.

[R2D2]

It's hard not to subscribe to the idea that our thoughts are generated by a physical body ruled by the deterministic laws of science (nevermind the [randomness] of quantum mechanics), in such a manner that in the very end there's no absolutely free will.

But, as someone else already put in this topic, even so our thought process look an awful lot like free.

I think, and i might be wrong, you are referring to me where you say 'as someone else already put'. Like i said before, what we believe doesn't change the truth.

He was a revolutionary.....It was said that the day they appeared on Ed Sullivan... for the hour of the show no crime occurred

Lovely thoughts ! from all my heart.
[09-Feb.. 50 years later, still not forgotten.]

@ perceiving exists....I agree with you....and I think it's a combination of nature/nurture, laws and institution, quantum physics and consciousness being the major player.

Every 'atom' (the actual indivisible) of the blowing wind, causing the rising of the leafs and every dust particle, already happened at the first 'known' moment or before?
Same goes for every result in every sport, from racing to poker, from snooker to chess, accompanied by every reaction of every fan and the like?

Those 'obsessed' with free will or not are, in my opinion, fascinated by the irreversible nature of time we seem to go trough. 'After all has been', every drop fell in one place at one time only, until it dried up and fell somewhere else again. That is of course unless you walked there, and why did you catch that drop making it go another way? Never the less no other possibility happened besides the actual occurrence, making it look like it only could go that way, well, because it did so. This is, again to me, nor proof nor the verse of free will. (kinda like the moot of an 'universe' in a never ending possible multi-verse, being moot of that universe again and being part of another possible multi-verse and so on, and so on, i think you know the drill)

Talking about great names like Lennon and Morrison, i'd like to mention they are way better than me at putting feelings and thoughts into words, and therefore i'd like to quote yet again someone else;


..And we’re waiting for something to say, instead of listening..

Took a hit, a good hit
Like a car into the wall
What a hit, a real hit
When I thought I'd seen it all
Took a hit, a good hit
Let the dealer make the call
Oh man, I thought I'd seen it all

You throw out the recipe
Forget about you and me
You throw out the recipe
It's not about you or me
You throw out the recipe
Forget about you and me
You throw out the recipe
Because the good life, the good love
The good bits are for free

Oh, that's what all the love should be

Because the good love, the good life
The good bits are the recipe

- Racoon - Took a hit


Do you think life was created, or was it coincidence?
If it was created, would there be free will or not?
If it was coincidence, would there be free will or not?

Share your opinions with me if you like
(or because you must do?)

[R2D2]

I tried posting but don't see it so I'll try again

@ perceiving Thanks for the poem...nice. As to your questions not really sure but I will answer with my
thoughts. I make decisions every day...some very difficult and without the consultation of other most of the time. How did the big bang occur...who knows but it was created by something I don't think a someone or super human but who knows. We will never know and frankly I don't care So is it free will or an illusion? my feeling is who cares either way....it is what it is. I agree with the view that our choices are based on past and current events such as parental, religious, legal, economic, social and educational influences. However, I think we can act way out the norms we are programed with. A couple of examples are suicide and murder in the case of a crime of passion or even out of pure rage. We are all capable of making choices and controlling impulse till we snap. I just hope I never snap

[HexHammer]

OMG! ..glaringly ignorent people! ..year in year out they will sit and dicuss things in their halpless ignorence for an eternity, when it was revealed 80 years ago, in very simple experiments they are too lazy to look up on the internet, because all they can do is sitting and having a cozy chat, researching is too difficult for them, and specially when they don't comprehend very simple concepts like OCD, compulsions, sugession, etc, etc.

It's so obvious they havn't taken the time to study simple modern concepts about society and basic human behaviour, all they say and do is like the mental aptitude of a small child.

This is why philosophy is so utterly useless and so many ridecudle it for it's navel gazing and metal mastubation!

[R2D2]

You suck... and yes Philosophy is useless bullshit...we all have opinions and you what they say about opinions.... thought experiments all call bullshit on each other so as far as I am concerned its all pointless....or at the least entertainment.