God doesn't "send" anyone to hell....

[metachuck]

This topic always gets people going, but it can’t be ignored. God doesn’t “send” you to hell any more than gravity can “push” you off a cliff. You take the step and then gravity takes over…falling is the consequence, facilitated by gravity, of a bad decision. This is an awful analogy but I’ve already started typing. According to the Christians there are those who know about Christ and those who don’t. Those that don’t are a different issue. Those that do know then have a choice. To jump off the cliff and let the natural law of gravity take its course and take you where it inevitably must or not to jump and not to end up where gravity would usher you. To accept Christ, for a Christian, is to accept the gift of Grace and not be ushered to where our sin (jumping off the cliff) inevitably must take us. Not to accept Christ is to jump off the cliff and to be subject to the law. Sin has consequences and to reject the remedy is to embrace those consequences. According to Christianity, the consequences of Sin are death/separation from God/i.e. Hell. So, God offers a way out of Hell and freedom from the law’s insistence on punishment. Christ offers to take our place and be punished in our stead. Someone must be punished: him or us. It isn’t some random and arbitrary happening. The murderer must commit the crime then the law must impose the consequences. Christ is the alternative to the punishment. If the alternative is rejected, then the punishment must be carried out. If one walks off the cliff, then gravity cannot be denied. We have the variable of choice...we can accept grace or we can accept Hell. This is how Christians see it anyway. So, as a Christian, I wouldn’t say that God sends you to hell. I would say that you and I make decisions that will either get us there or get us a reprieve. Did that make any sense?

[Blaggard]

No because the Christian hell was an invention that was spawned by Catholicisms desire to corrupt what it says in the Bible to exert control.

Nowhere in The Bible does it says Hell is a place of fear and torture, or hell is whatever. Hell is being apart from God, just as the Jews say Sheol, death the grave. that said this assumes God exists and The Bible is true, I can be damn sure nothing man ever says in historical works is remotely 100% true, and The Bible is no different but meh, I suppose The Bible could be the only book ever written that is not full of inacurracy.

[metachuck]

Nowhere in The Bible does it says Hell is a place of fear and torture, or hell is whatever. Hell is being apart from God, just as the Jews say Sheol, death the grave.

Oh I agree. I don't presume to know what hell's qualities are. I think Dante envisioned the inner most circle of hell as horribly cold and dark, complete separation from God. I am not saying Hell is a lake of fire, I am saying that if one takes Christianity seriously then sin and hell are issues that have to be discussed. If one doesn't take the religion seriously, then it's a moot point anyway.

[QMan]

No because the Christian hell was an invention that was spawned by Catholicisms desire to corrupt what it says in the Bible to exert control.

Nowhere in The Bible does it says Hell is a place of fear and torture, or hell is whatever. Hell is being apart from God, just as the Jews say Sheol, death the grave. that said this assumes God exists and The Bible is true, I can be damn sure nothing man ever says in historical works is remotely 100% true, and The Bible is no different but meh, I suppose The Bible could be the only book ever written that is not full of inacurracy.

This is a really old topic and has been covered many times over, but you may not be aware of it. E.g., in Phil of Religion forum search for

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10572&p=146775#p146775

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10834

and you may want to do a generic search using "hell".

[metachuck]

I'd would assume it had been covered much much more than just a few times. It is more religion 101 than anything.

[Felasco]

Ideological Christianity is an expression of a lack of faith.

I say we are born, and in the next moment a gravity grabs us and pulls us inevitably back towards where we came from, whatever you might wish to call that.

We can throw a rock up in to the air, and even as it races upwards in to the sky, in every single moment gravity is there exerting it's quiet invisible influence, patiently awaiting the moment when the return trip will begin.

There's nothing we can do about it, nothing we need to do. It's all built in to the system. Relax, look out the window, feel the wind on your face, and enjoy the ride.

Ideological Christianity is a celebration of self. It's all about me, and what I do or don't do. I am so very important, I am in charge, I am the decider!! The classic human fantasy.

The Earth is at the center of everything and the entire universe revolves around it. Remember that one? Like that. Understandable, but a silly fantasy nonetheless. An unfortunate by-product of a limited perspective.

[3Sum]

This is Pascal's wager and has been refuted many times. I'll give a link to one of the better refutations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU

Just in case somebody makes the "what if you're wrong argument": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXzlMblBQpQ

metachuck and you find that kind of mafia blackmail justified?

Also, are you implying that god has no free will and that he HAS to send us to hell?

Why is the criteria concerning our supposed eternal afterlife to be irrational and accept things that I can't convince myself to accept? After I learned as much as I did about religion and why did people invent it, what purposes it used, what is the psychology of religious beliefs etc. I literally CAN'T convince myself that there is a god or a Jesus even if I wanted.

Could you convince yourself that dragons exist? Or that Zeus exists?

[metachuck]

Why is the criteria concerning our supposed eternal afterlife to be irrational and accept things that I can't convince myself to accept? After I learned as much as I did about religion and why did people invent it, what purposes it used, what is the psychology of religious beliefs etc. I literally CAN'T convince myself that there is a god or a Jesus even if I wanted.Could you convince yourself that dragons exist? Or that Zeus exists?

Oh 3Sum, I know I could never change your mind. This is actually something any Christian would say. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. I don't have the influence, the oratory, or the ability in any sense to change your heart. I honestly think this discussion is a total waste of time. We each bring presuppositions to the table. Either they are compatible or they are not. Ours are not. I am convinced I'm right and you are convinced you are right. I could change your mind no easier than you could change mine. I just like the subject and have some weird mental twist that makes me never tire of the whole discussion, but do I honestly think my words are going to change anyone's mind much less their heart? Absolutely not. If you can't believe, then don't believe. That is the wonderful thing about tolerance. You get to do and be what you want as long as you don't hurt someone else or deprive them of their rights. But that gets us on to another subject all together Oh yeah, and no I couldn't believe in dragons or that Zeus exists. Your point is well taken.

[Felasco]

I don't have the influence, the oratory, or the ability in any sense to change your heart. I honestly think this discussion is a total waste of time. We each bring presuppositions to the table. Either they are compatible or they are not. Ours are not. I am convinced I'm right and you are convinced you are right. I could change your mind no easier than you could change mine. I just like the subject and have some weird mental twist that makes me never tire of the whole discussion, but do I honestly think my words are going to change anyone's mind much less their heart? Absolutely not.

How refreshing! Well said. Yes, I have the same screw loose, and I never persuade anybody of anything either.

We have to enjoy this process for itself, hopefully with a sense of humor at least some of the time, or it becomes perfectly irrational.

[3Sum]

metachuck thank you for at least being polite and honest. My beliefs are very flexible and I adjust them depending on evidence. If I truly experience a "revelation" and the deity provides me with evidence, sure I'll believe.

[Kuznetzova]

So, God offers a way out of Hell and freedom from the law’s insistence on punishment. Christ offers to take our place and be punished in our stead. Someone must be punished: him or us.

Dear metachuck,

I'm sorry to inform you there was a slight mixup.
You are currently posting in a philosophy forum. You probably wanted "Bible Study" forum, two doors down the hall.

[HexHammer]

metachuck

Oh, that means that mass murderes and other such scum go to heaven? ..poor logic!

[Hjarloprillar]

Hell does not exist.
Or does 'gods plan' include a place where your immortal soul is torn apart in agony for ever?
If it does then that god of religion is a sadistic butcher.

I believe....

We fear it.
We fear the hell within us.
In our blackest nightmares is not the face of evil, our own face?

libera te tutemet

[Hjarloprillar]

So, God offers a way out of Hell and freedom from the law’s insistence on punishment. Christ offers to take our place and be punished in our stead. Someone must be punished: him or us.

Dear metachuck,

I'm sorry to inform you there was a slight mixup.
You are currently posting in a philosophy forum. You probably wanted "Bible Study" forum, two doors down the hall.

Kuz

[M=Metachuk]
[P= Protaganist]
________________

M walks down hall and enters 2nd door.
"Is this bible study?"
P. "I already told you once"
M. " no you didn't"
P. " yes i did"
M. " no you didn't"
P. " yes i did"
M. " Oh this is stupid"
P. "no it isnt"

................................

[Blaggard]

metachuck

Oh, that means that mass murderes and other such scum go to heaven? ..poor logic!

Yeah if they truly repent their sins and follow Jesus in faith they go to heaven, heavens mansion has many rooms, etc the Vineyard parable and so on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mpxMZWuulk

Mind you hell is probably more consistent in the Jewish faith where it is just being apart from God Sheol the grave, all this pitchforks and torture bullshit is pretty much a far fetched peasant scaring device.