Christian apology by a non-Christian

[Felasco]

Felasco: re your comments on whether separation from God is real or an illusion, perhaps in some sense it is both.

I can go with that Harry.

It is probably the inherently divisive nature of thought that tries to frame the question in to a dualistic black/white, either/or, yes/no mode.

Dualism seems pretty hard to escape, given that it arises from the properties of what we're made of, is built in to the language etc. I observe myself thinking and writing in a dualistic mode, while talking about that very thing.

Dualism is bad! No, it's good! Oh crap, I give up....

[Felasco]

Do you have any statistics or data to support this, or is it just something that sounds good. I write this as I'm eating some Ham for a snack.

This article might provide a starting point. A quick Google search will provide many more.

Environmental impact of meat production

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmen ... production

[Harry Baird]

By the way, Felasco: that video you linked to a while back - the one of the hippy dude making all sorts of facial expressions without talking... was that you? I should have asked at the time, but for some reason forgot to.

[thedoc]

Perfectly healthy for who? What level of physical activity will a Vegan Diet support based on the calorie content of the food as compared to the calorie needs of one who is physically active with hard physical work?

I worked in the remodeling biz when I was younger on my wife's vegie cooking, lots of hard physical activity.

Now I'm 61 and bike ten miles a day on the same diet. I hike many miles a day in the woods. Not only that, I challenge you young beef fattened punks to a wrestling match!!

We've been vegie since the earlier seventies. I never get colds. Never need a doctor (knock on wood).

The only downside I've been able to see is that a vegie diet seems to eventually turn one in to a typoholic forum blowhard, so watch out for that!

I know meat eaters that do the same thing, so where is the advantage, other than not eating animals. I grew up in farm country, and I now live in farm country, I don't see farmers who are mistreating their animals. It doesn't make any sense to mistreat a product, a mistreated animal in poor health would not be a good product, but a well treated animal in good health would be a better product and would get a better price. Mistreating the product is not economically sound and would only be for psychopaths. So far all I've seen is some ethical prattle about not eating our fellow living creatures, so I'm no better than a wild predator, I can live with that.

[Felasco]

Hi Harry,

By the way, Felasco: that video you linked to a while back - the one of the hippy dude making all sorts of facial expressions without talking... was that you? I should have asked at the time, but for some reason forgot to.

That is Sri Baba Bozo, the founder of Bozoism, the next great world religion.

I've heard he made that video while inhaling various holy herbal substances high in the North Florida San Felasco Mountains at his Gullible Gals Ashram, where he plots various profoundly pompous pontifications to inflict upon an unsuspecting world.

I would invite you to visit his ashram, but you appear to be neither gullible or a gal, and the brochure he handed me appears pretty firm on those requirements.

Maybe he'll make another video soon to clear all this up! If you make a video with your questions I'll hike back up to the mountain top to deliver it to him for you.

[Felasco]

thedoc, I don't want to get all moralistic on you. What you eat is your business. I assume you now know that meat is not particularly good for the human body or the planet, and will take whatever course of action you find appropriate.

[thedoc]

BTW there is a 'Nova science now' program "Can I eat That" that makes the case for humans becoming human and supporting our big brain because of cooked food including meat. The implication is that by reverting to a natural uncooked vegan diet we can no longer support the big brain and would revert to a physique similar to a Gorilla with the relative brain size.

[Harry Baird]

I don't see farmers who are mistreating their animals

I guess you haven't seen many factory farms then, but why would you when they're deliberately kept out of sight?

So far all I've seen is some ethical prattle about not eating our fellow living creatures, so I'm no better than a wild predator, I can live with that.

As opposed to Felasco, I will "get all moralistic on you". Judging by your current attitude, this will be to no avail, but better not to leave it unsaid...

No doubt, you would baulk at the idea that you and your fellow humans might be predated upon in the same way we predate upon animals - imagine a "master" human race cannibalising (farming) a slave human race; an entirely feasible scenario, yet one which, I bet, you would find abhorrent; somehow, though, you don't recognise that this is in essence no different to what we are doing to animals when we farm them. This is the basis of what has been termed "speciesism". In other words, when it comes to right to life and freedom, there are no meaningful distinctions between humans and other animals - we all are capable of both suffering and pleasure, we all want to keep on living - yet we as humans in our bigotry extend our ethical concern only to other humans, and not to all life as we ought to.

[Harry Baird]

As for our big brains: however we got them (and I honestly don't know whether or not it was due to cooked meat), we now have them, and can perfectly well support them on a vegan diet. The idea that if we eat a vegan diet going forward we will lose our big brains seems to me to be ridiculous.

[thedoc]

thedoc, I don't want to get all moralistic on you. What you eat is your business. I assume you now know that meat is not particularly good for the human body or the planet, and will take whatever course of action you find appropriate.

I have also heard that cooked meat is a better source of energy for the body than uncooked meat, easier to digest, and possibly better than an uncooked vegan diet. My source is the Nova program I referenced above, what is your source of information that meat is not good for the human body? I can accept that meat might not be good for the planet, used as a source of food. Fewer people would consume less meat as food, so how do we address that problem?

[Felasco]

thedoc, animal fat is a major source of heart problems, the leading killer of humans in developed countries. This is pretty common knowledge.

Most people get their meat from big industrial agribusiness corporations, who do things like jam the animals with anti-biotics, which is helping make anti-biotics less useful for treating diseases, yet another growing crisis in the making.

Getting one's meat from a small family farm, the traditional way, is another matter, and less of a threat.

Global warming is poised to wreak real havoc on our civilization, and changing our diets is a relatively easy way each of us can personally make a difference in the right direction. Everybody has to drive to work by some means, but nobody has to eat meat, that's entirely optional.

[thedoc]

I don't see farmers who are mistreating their animals

I guess you haven't seen many factory farms then, but why would you when they're deliberately kept out of sight?

So far all I've seen is some ethical prattle about not eating our fellow living creatures, so I'm no better than a wild predator, I can live with that.

As opposed to Felasco, I will "get all moralistic on you". Judging by your current attitude, this will be to no avail, but better not to leave it unsaid...

No doubt, you would baulk at the idea that you and your fellow humans might be predated upon in the same way we predate upon animals - imagine a "master" human race cannibalising (farming) a slave human race; an entirely feasible scenario, yet one which, I bet, you would find abhorrent; somehow, though, you don't recognise that this is in essence no different to what we are doing to animals when we farm them. This is the basis of what has been termed "speciesism". In other words, when it comes to right to life and freedom, there are no meaningful distinctions between humans and other animals - we all are capable of both suffering and pleasure, we all want to keep on living - yet we as humans in our bigotry extend our ethical concern only to other humans, and not to all life as we ought to.

Abhorrent, yes, but has it happened? certainly in the not too recent past, and it was common, in the not too recent past, that a "superior" class of people to totally subjugated most of the rest of the population. For most of human history, most of the population was little better than slaves, and often slaves were better off than most of those who were not slaves. I have no illusions about history, I used to be amused at those who longed for the days of Knighthood, and Ladies, and chivalry, little realizing that they would probably be living in a hut rather than a castle, paying most of what they grew to the lord of the manor. It's only recent history that has allowed many Americans, and a few other developed countries, to enjoy the benefit of equal opportunity, notice I said Americans and a few others, I understand that much of the world does not enjoy those same privileges.

I also believe you misjudge my attitude, but I object to extreme claims, and I object to factory farms if the animals are mistreated. Show me the evidence and the proof. Don't tell me to look for it, that's just being lazy on your part.

[thedoc]

thedoc, animal fat is a major source of heart problems, the leading killer of humans in developed countries. This is pretty common knowledge.

Most people get their meat from big industrial agribusiness corporations, who do things like jam the animals with anti-biotics, which is helping make anti-biotics less useful for treating diseases, yet another growing crisis in the making.

Getting one's meat from a small family farm, the traditional way, is another matter, and less of a threat.

Global warming is poised to wreak real havoc on our civilization, and changing our diets is a relatively easy way each of us can personally make a difference in the right direction. Everybody has to drive to work by some means, but nobody has to eat meat, that's entirely optional.

Yes, but you can't paint all people with the same brush, I eat excessive amounts of animal fat in my diet, but my arteries are clear, they've been checked recently. Some people process fat with no problem, some people eat little or no fat and still have problems. Individuals are just that, individuals.

We do everything we can to insure that the meat we buy is from properly raised livestock.

That 'Global Warming' will be a disaster is claimed but I am not convinced. Past Era's of warmer climate have not been what the fear-mongers are claiming. There have been periods of warm, wet climate that have seen abundant plant and animal life. I don't see how abundant growth and lush plant life can wreak havoc on our civilization.

If you are referring to the rising sea levels, the coastal cities will simply move up, just as Venice has been doing for centuries. No-one is going to vacate that valuable property for a little water. They will just fill in the basements and move everything up a floor at a time.

[Harry Baird]

Harry: imagine a "master" human race cannibalising (farming) a slave human race; an entirely feasible scenario, yet one which, I bet, you would find abhorrent; somehow, though, you don't recognise that this is in essence no different to what we are doing to animals when we farm them

thedoc: Abhorrent, yes, but has it happened? certainly in the not too recent past, and it was common, in the not too recent past, that a "superior" class of people to totally subjugated most of the rest of the population. For most of human history, most of the population was little better than slaves, and often slaves were better off than most of those who were not slaves. I have no illusions about history, I used to be amused at those who longed for the days of Knighthood, and Ladies, and chivalry, little realizing that they would probably be living in a hut rather than a castle, paying most of what they grew to the lord of the manor. It's only recent history that has allowed many Americans, and a few other developed countries, to enjoy the benefit of equal opportunity, notice I said Americans and a few others, I understand that much of the world does not enjoy those same privileges.

I'm not sure I understand your response. I was drawing an analogy, to attempt to show you that the farming of animals is comparable to the farming of humans. I was expecting you to either concede the point or to argue it, but instead, you did neither. I don't really know what you are trying to say.

As for "Show me the evidence and the proof. Don't tell me to look for it, that's just being lazy on your part": please, man, I have been extremely careful to back up *everything* I've said in this thread, from offering proof that the dietetic associations of both the USA and Australia affirm the health of a vegan diet, to offering proof that many top-level athletes sustain themselves on a vegan diet. I did no differently in offering proof that factory farming is abusive of animals, but perhaps you missed it the first time. If so, then please *this time* click on the link in what I'm quoting below of myself from my last post. I didn't offer the link for aesthetic purposes, I expected and hoped that you would follow it and see for yourself the true horror of where most of your animal products come from:

I guess you haven't seen many factory farms then, but why would you when they're deliberately kept out of sight?

[Felasco]

Yes, but you can't paint all people with the same brush, I eat excessive amounts of animal fat in my diet, but my arteries are clear, they've been checked recently.

I didn't mean to comment on any particular person, where I agree I am not qualified to make a diagnosis. It is however indisputable that animal fat is a leading component of heart disease, and that heart disease is a leading killer of humans, in regards to the population as a whole.

We do everything we can to insure that the meat we buy is from properly raised livestock.

Ok, again, my points are not about you personally, or any other individual. My point is that on average, in general, in the big picture, the meat industry is not a net benefit to mankind.

That 'Global Warming' will be a disaster is claimed but I am not convinced.

Then you are simply ignorant on this particular topic (but certainly not generally), sorry, apologies, but it's simply true. The overwhelming majority of the scientific consensus is that we are headed rather quickly in to deep doo-doo.

Past Era's of warmer climate have not been what the fear-mongers are claiming. There have been periods of warm, wet climate that have seen abundant plant and animal life. I don't see how abundant growth and lush plant life can wreak havoc on our civilization.

If you should have Netflix I will dig up some good videos to help educate you.

If you are referring to the rising sea levels, the coastal cities will simply move up, just as Venice has been doing for centuries. No-one is going to vacate that valuable property for a little water. They will just fill in the basements and move everything up a floor at a time.

I'm sorry, I generally find your posts to be charming and quite intelligent, but on this subject, you just happen to be waaaay behind the curve.

Yes, climate change has occurred in the past, this is of course true. But in the past it happened over long time periods, and species were able to adapt. There were no huge cities to be concerned about, no nuclear weapons on hair trigger for the next crisis and so on.

As you surely know, the human race is already careening along wildly on the edge of various calamities, I shall not list them all here. If we don't cut it out, sooner or later we will discover the straw that broke the camels back. Climate change is leading candidate to be the final straw that drives us fully in to chaos.

Apologies for my stridency, but this really is actually a very big issue, and a person of your obvious intelligence is advised to get up to speed on some of these topics.