http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyfFd4iBI-Q
Biblical Archaeology: The Wife of God | BBC Documentary
What existed BEFORE the first religion?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: What existed BEFORE the first religion?
This is funny.
The whole thing is a sort of whispered "conspiracy theory" kind of presentation, as if something very important, earth-shattering and arcane were being revealed, and as if polytheism and idolatry were something the Hebrews, and the First Testament in particular did not know about. But Ashtaroth and Baal and various other such polytheist deities are liberally mentioned in the Books of the Prophets, and in every case the practice of the worship of them is frankly recognized and roundly rejected as falsehood. Yet this documentary suggests their show host has made some unique discovery nobody knew about, one with singular importance.
But think about it: even if we say, the ancient Hebrews occasionally fell to worshiping Ashtaroth or Ishtar or Baal or Nehushtan or whatever, this is nothing other than the Hebrew Bible frankly admits. And it says that every time the ancients fell to these practices, they were judged for doing so. So it surprises absolutely no one who has read the Book, and has no implications for monotheism, its justification or its rationality. Non-sequitur. To say, ancient people did this or that is not the same thing as to say (as this silly, self-important show seems to want to say) that their mistakes are approved by God, the Bible or modern monotheists.
The BBC should get some quality control. How the mighty have fallen.
The whole thing is a sort of whispered "conspiracy theory" kind of presentation, as if something very important, earth-shattering and arcane were being revealed, and as if polytheism and idolatry were something the Hebrews, and the First Testament in particular did not know about. But Ashtaroth and Baal and various other such polytheist deities are liberally mentioned in the Books of the Prophets, and in every case the practice of the worship of them is frankly recognized and roundly rejected as falsehood. Yet this documentary suggests their show host has made some unique discovery nobody knew about, one with singular importance.
But think about it: even if we say, the ancient Hebrews occasionally fell to worshiping Ashtaroth or Ishtar or Baal or Nehushtan or whatever, this is nothing other than the Hebrew Bible frankly admits. And it says that every time the ancients fell to these practices, they were judged for doing so. So it surprises absolutely no one who has read the Book, and has no implications for monotheism, its justification or its rationality. Non-sequitur. To say, ancient people did this or that is not the same thing as to say (as this silly, self-important show seems to want to say) that their mistakes are approved by God, the Bible or modern monotheists.
The BBC should get some quality control. How the mighty have fallen.
Re: What existed BEFORE the first religion?
Neanderthals buried their dead, an international team of archaeologists has concluded after a 13-year study of remains discovered in southwestern France.
[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 154328.htm]
The limits of the "first" religion are pushed even further...
For me, it is only a matter of time before we "discover" that there was no first religion and that humans believed in the wonders of the world since they were born...
[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 154328.htm]
The limits of the "first" religion are pushed even further...
For me, it is only a matter of time before we "discover" that there was no first religion and that humans believed in the wonders of the world since they were born...
Re: What existed BEFORE the first religion?
Of course there was no first religion. There were thousands. And buried bodies prove nothing about belief in the supernatural. You don't need a god or superstition to not want your mother's body - yes, even though you are convinced that she's dead and will stay dead - eaten by coyotes.
Nobody is born believing anything at all. They have to be taught what their care-givers want, and kids will say whatever they think adults expect of them - otherwise, they get hit.
Nobody is born believing anything at all. They have to be taught what their care-givers want, and kids will say whatever they think adults expect of them - otherwise, they get hit.
Last edited by Skip on Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What existed BEFORE the first religion?
Skip wrote:Of course there was no first religion. There were thousands. And buried bodies prove nothing about belief in the supernatural. You don't need a god or superstition to not want your mother eaten by coyotes.
Why would an animal worry about their mother being eaten by other animals?
Re: What existed BEFORE the first religion?
Animals care for their parents and children. Elephants go to quite a lot of trouble to hide the bones of their dead. A bitch whose pup has died will mourn over it for days. The more intelligent the animal, the more it can care. Early humans were very bright animals who cared a lot. There is no big black line of demarcation between the last post-chimpanzee and the first pre-human. Lucy cared.
Re: What existed BEFORE the first religion?
fyi, paleo-anthropologists cite the presence of certain grave goods as evidence of probable religious practices, not mere burial of dead bodies. When a grave contains supplies of food, water, weapons and gold, one can conclude the burial party believed in an afterlife. - CWSkip wrote:Of course there was no first religion. There were thousands. And buried bodies prove nothing about belief in the supernatural. You don't need a god or superstition to not want your mother's body - yes, even though you are convinced that she's dead and will stay dead - eaten by coyotes.
Nobody is born believing anything at all. They have to be taught what their care-givers want, and kids will say whatever they think adults expect of them - otherwise, they get hit.
Re: What existed BEFORE the first religion?
That's fine. While the simple fact of burial proves nothing except intelligence*, the further corroborative evidence of food and supplies in a grave is indicative of belief in - or at least hope for - a life beyond death. We can't tell whether that life is imagined as a continuation, a culmination or a new beginning, all of which have been posited by ancient civilizations, so it's reasonable to think that pre-civilized people also entertained various notions.
From there to "religion" is still a leap, though; bigger or smaller, depending on how you define religion.
*Intelligence is required to realize that human bodies are meat: left out in the open will soon be unpleasant to live near, attract unwanted attention from carnivores and insects, give away the band's whereabouts to human enemies - and/or simply wanting to treat the dead person with dignity.
It's bad science to read too much into a single datum, or to ascribe one's own motives to unknown people who did one thing similarly.
From there to "religion" is still a leap, though; bigger or smaller, depending on how you define religion.
*Intelligence is required to realize that human bodies are meat: left out in the open will soon be unpleasant to live near, attract unwanted attention from carnivores and insects, give away the band's whereabouts to human enemies - and/or simply wanting to treat the dead person with dignity.
It's bad science to read too much into a single datum, or to ascribe one's own motives to unknown people who did one thing similarly.
Re: What existed BEFORE the first religion?
I find it fascinating the earliest hominid hearths (fireplaces) have been dated to about 800k years ago. That means by then, our ancestors were not only smart enough to kill big game with weapons, tote the meat and butcher's tools back to their encampment in rucksacks, but make a fire from scratch and cook their dinner. Nothing was ever the same again, the whole world was ours for the taking.
It was around those fireplaces, after considerable time and evolution had elapsed, that the first proto-religious discussions occurred. Before that, our brutish forbearers confined their conversations to rather mundane topics. - CW
http://onhumanaffairs.blogspot.com/2012 ... chive.html
It was around those fireplaces, after considerable time and evolution had elapsed, that the first proto-religious discussions occurred. Before that, our brutish forbearers confined their conversations to rather mundane topics. - CW
http://onhumanaffairs.blogspot.com/2012 ... chive.html
Re: What existed BEFORE the first religion?
"Care" is a human word. Can't be applied directly and as-is to animals...Skip wrote:Animals care for their parents and children. Elephants go to quite a lot of trouble to hide the bones of their dead. A bitch whose pup has died will mourn over it for days. The more intelligent the animal, the more it can care. Early humans were very bright animals who cared a lot. There is no big black line of demarcation between the last post-chimpanzee and the first pre-human. Lucy cared.
Re: What existed BEFORE the first religion?
What species do all the other words belong to? Humans make words to describe what they see and feel and want. The languages of other species don't have words, but still describe what they see and feel and want."Care" is a human word.
Humans can say more about what they think than other animals can - at least, to other humans.
Who made that rule? And why? We're all animals; there is no cut-off point between the feelings of a timber-wolf, a coyote, a dingo and a dog. No uncrossable biological frontier between the feelings of Koko, her keeper and her cat.Can't be applied directly and as-is to animals...