Epistemology 101

[Gary Childress]

One major aspect of philosophy which I've never taken a formal course in is epistemology. I've read Descartes' Meditations and Discourse on Method and hence have a bit of a basic primer on the subject but I've never really delved into the fine aspects of epistemology. In this thread I would like to try to learn a bit more about the subject with the help of some of the more learned folks in the forums.

Here are some questions to kick things off with:

1. What, if anything, can we know with absolute, infallible certainty?

2. What does it mean for us if we cannot know something with absolute, infallible certainty? How does/should doubt affect our actions?

3. Is radical Cartesian doubt even possible? For instance I may not know for certain that jumping off a particular window ledge of a tall building will kill me but that is not going to prevent me from avoiding said window ledge regardless.

4. What are some of your personal reflections on the subject of epistemology?

Thank you for the discussion.

[henry quirk]

1. What, if anything, can we know with absolute, infallible certainty?

Not a thing.


2. What does it mean for us if we cannot know something with absolute, infallible certainty? How does/should doubt affect our actions?

It means one meanders through living with approximations, educated guesses. Thing is: "absolute, infallible certainty" (*requiring absolute, infallible information) is not necessary to live, to get on in the world.


3. Is radical Cartesian doubt even possible? For instance I may not know for certain that jumping off a particular window ledge of a tall building will kill me but that is not going to prevent me from avoiding said window ledge regardless.

From what I can tell: jumpin' off the roof of a ten story building is -- in the least -- gonna cripple me.

I may be wrong.

Not gonna put it to the test to find out.


4. What are some of your personal reflections on the subject of epistemology?

I have none.






*access to, and the ability to comprehend...two absurdities

[Gary Childress]

1. What, if anything, can we know with absolute, infallible certainty?

Not a thing.

2. What does it mean for us if we cannot know something with absolute, infallible certainty? How does/should doubt affect our actions?

It means one meanders through living with approximations, educated guesses. Thing is: "absolute, infallible certainty" (*requiring absolute, infallible information) is not necessary to live, to get on in the world.

Regarding number 1: can I not know with absolute certainty that I am? Can I not know with absolute certainty that I think I see a computer screen in front of me? It seems like, irrespective of the objective truth, I do know for certain that I am experiencing this thing in front of me which I believe myself to be typing on. It may be an illusion or what not but I know with certainty I am experiencing this experience I am having.

I really like your answer for #2. In the final analysis it seems like we can get along pretty darn well on approximations and educated guesses. Maybe Cartesian certainty is not so critical after all to live life?

[Ginkgo]

1. What, if anything, can we know with absolute, infallible certainty?

Not a thing.

2. What does it mean for us if we cannot know something with absolute, infallible certainty? How does/should doubt affect our actions?

It means one meanders through living with approximations, educated guesses. Thing is: "absolute, infallible certainty" (*requiring absolute, infallible information) is not necessary to live, to get on in the world.

Regarding number 1: can I not know with absolute certainty that I am? Can I not know with absolute certainty that I think I see a computer screen in front of me? It seems like, irrespective of the objective truth, I do know for certain that I am experiencing this thing in front of me which I believe myself to be typing on. It may be an illusion or what not but I know with certainty I am experiencing this experience I am having.

I really like your answer for #2. In the final analysis it seems like we can get along pretty darn well on approximations and educated guesses. Maybe Cartesian certainty is not so critical after all to live life?

The characters of the first Matrix film also believed they were experiencing the really real. But in the end it turns out they were nothing more than a brain in a vat being fed sense data. This is pretty much Descartes' position in relation to the world we experience. Instead of a Matrix film Descartes postulated an evil genius that does the same job as the matrix computer. The characters in the film might have been able to doubt their experiences, but at the very least they probably could confirm to themselves that they existed.

It's an interesting comparison.

[thedoc]

One major aspect of philosophy which I've never taken a formal course in is epistemology. I've read Descartes' Meditations and Discourse on Method and hence have a bit of a basic primer on the subject but I've never really delved into the fine aspects of epistemology. In this thread I would like to try to learn a bit more about the subject with the help of some of the more learned folks in the forums.

1. What, if anything, can we know with absolute, infallible certainty?

2. What does it mean for us if we cannot know something with absolute, infallible certainty? How does/should doubt affect our actions?

3. Is radical Cartesian doubt even possible?

4. What are some of your personal reflections on the subject of epistemology?

1 - Not much, except that you are considering this question.

2 - Even less, just get on with things, trying to make sense of it, it only makes you crazy. That's why philosophers are insane.

If not 1, then not 3.

4 - Most people don't see what's in front of them, so don't understand what the think they know.

BTW, don't call me a 'Learned folk in this forum', I'm having enough trouble living up to being an idiot.

[henry quirk]

"...can I not know with absolute certainty that I am?"

It seems that I exist...I certainly live my life with that as the fundamental...but: who knows? Mebbe I'm just a computer program, or an enjarred brain, or sumthin' else entirely. My existence may not what I imagine it to be.

*shrug*

The true nature of my existence (that it is what it appears, or is sumthin' else entirely) isn't sumthin' I spend a lot of time worrying about...why should I?

Let's say I am just a computer program. How could I ever hope to verify that? And, if I could prove to myself that I'm just a program, how would that information aid me? Seems to me: I'd still be stuck 'living' as I think I do...the information wouldn't release me or alter my circumstance.

Not sayin' 'ignorance is bliss'...am sayin' sometimes, mebbe most of the time, ignorant is what you are and will continue to be.

#

"Maybe Cartesian certainty is not so critical after all to live life?"

I don't even know what 'that' is and I get along okay...

##

"I'm having enough trouble living up to being an idiot."

HA!

[Gary Childress]

"...can I not know with absolute certainty that I am?"

It seems that I exist...I certainly live my life with that as the fundamental...but: who knows? Mebbe I'm just a computer program, or an enjarred brain, or sumthin' else entirely. My existence may not what I imagine it to be.

Regardless of the nature of my existence, can't I know with certainty that I am? I could be a computer program or whatever but nevertheless I am. You can question what you are but that doesn't negate the fact that you are, does it?

[Ginkgo]

"...can I not know with absolute certainty that I am?"

It seems that I exist...I certainly live my life with that as the fundamental...but: who knows? Mebbe I'm just a computer program, or an enjarred brain, or sumthin' else entirely. My existence may not what I imagine it to be.

Regardless of the nature of my existence, can't I know with certainty that I am? I could be a computer program or whatever but nevertheless I am. You can question what you are but that doesn't negate the fact that you are, does it?

Yes, this is the nub of Descartes argument.

[henry quirk]

"...can't I know with certainty that I am?"

It seems that way, probably is that way, but -- and don't ask me how -- it may not be that way.

Again: I don't spend a lot of time thinkin' on it...again: can't see much point in thinkin' on it.

*shrug*

[Impenitent]

cogito ergo cogito

sum ergo sum

finis

-Imp

[Arising_uk]

1. What, if anything, can we know with absolute, infallible certainty?

The Laws of Logic. And as you've said, 'I Am'. I'd also add that 'there is at least one other ' as I am a language speaker and this necessarily means two.

2. What does it mean for us if we cannot know something with absolute, infallible certainty? How does/should doubt affect our actions?

Since we can I'm not sure of the link to doubt?

3. Is radical Cartesian doubt even possible? For instance I may not know for certain that jumping off a particular window ledge of a tall building will kill me but that is not going to prevent me from avoiding said window ledge regardless.

Because I presume the certainty is increased when considering personal injury and pain.

[Gary Childress]

1. What, if anything, can we know with absolute, infallible certainty?

The Laws of Logic. And as you've said, 'I Am'. I'd also add that 'there is at least one other ' as I am a language speaker and this necessarily means two.

Interesting thought regarding the laws of logic being knowable with infallible certainty. I recall Descartes bringing up the idea that an evil genius might be fooling him into believing that 2 + 2 = 4 when in fact it does not. However, I don't recall him bringing up the same type of doubt with regards to the laws of logic. I'll have to go back and reread to recall for sure but it seems to me that if an evil genius can fool us into believing that 2 + 2 = 4 when it does not, then such a genius could equally fool us about the basic laws of logic. Of course that would really put Descartes in a bind because he uses logic to prove the existence of God to get him out of his quandary of doubt.

[HexHammer]

1. What, if anything, can we know with absolute, infallible certainty?

- nothing!

2. What does it mean for us if we cannot know something with absolute, infallible certainty? How does/should doubt affect our actions?

- ofcase doubt should affect our actions, but sometimes doubt is counterproductive and we must do things with dertimation and resolution.

3. Is radical Cartesian doubt even possible? For instance I may not know for certain that jumping off a particular window ledge of a tall building will kill me but that is not going to prevent me from avoiding said window ledge regardless.

- eeeh?

4. What are some of your personal reflections on the subject of epistemology?

- many will be rainbow chasers in the subject and chase their own tail for an enternity without getting any wiser.

Many are too stupid to study for themselves, and demand to have all the answers given to them by others, which only results in half baked answers that doesn't suffice, and they will usually disregard very intelligent answers, because they'r boring and dull.

[Philos]

"...can I not know with absolute certainty that I am?"

It seems that I exist...I certainly live my life with that as the fundamental...but: who knows? Mebbe I'm just a computer program, or an enjarred brain, or sumthin' else entirely. My existence may not what I imagine it to be.

He didn't ask if you could know with certainty what you are, he asked if you could know with certainty that you exist.

If you are a computer program, or a brain in a jar, or anything else, then you exist.

[bergie15]

Descartes wasn't talking about if other objects existed, he was questioning his own existence. The cogito ergo sum means I think, therefore I exist. (The computer program idea was not around in his time, obviously it had not been invented yet.) He came to the conclusion that his existence was real because he had the ability to think rationally.