Your OWN personal morality

Abortion, euthanasia, genetic engineering, Just War theory and other such hot topics.

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Ned
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Re: Your OWN personal morality

Post by Ned »

phyllo wrote:That suggests a simple honest exchange of goods for money. But before you wrote about 'nourishing'.

So what's the difference between what you are saying about a personal morality and what others have been saying?
The difference is in caring about how: by what productive, destructive or wasteful way you acquired the money.

I thought I made it very clear.
Tusok
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Re: Your OWN personal morality

Post by Tusok »

Hello Ned.

Here's mine.

Ahimsa, along with attempting great things.

T
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phyllo
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Re: Your OWN personal morality

Post by phyllo »

The difference is in caring about how: by what productive, destructive or wasteful way you acquired the money.

I thought I made it very clear.
But doesn't that require investigating the customers?

And let's say that a customer comes in and you know for a fact that he manufactures machine guns. Is not your lifestyle directly dependent on these weapons protecting you from invasion by foreign armies?
Don't you get a benefit from what he does?
Ned
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Re: Your OWN personal morality

Post by Ned »

Tusok wrote:Hello Ned.

Here's mine.

Ahimsa, along with attempting great things.

T
Hello Tusok,

Ahimsa is a very good start! :)
Ned
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Re: Your OWN personal morality

Post by Ned »

phyllo wrote:But doesn't that require investigating the customers?
No, you have a responsibility for your own actions. If you know that the customer is a thief of worse, you might take the next step and deal with it, if you feel you are up to it. But your primary responsibility is making sure that you are a positively contributing member of your society.
And let's say that a customer comes in and you know for a fact that he manufactures machine guns. Is not your lifestyle directly dependent on these weapons protecting you from invasion by foreign armies? Don't you get a benefit from what he does?
This is the group-thinking trap most people fall into.

This is also the justification game I was talking about in another thread.

Very few people actually want to invade other countries. Their leaders want to and their best inducement for citizens to comply is fear. Telling them that unless you invade them, they will invade you. G.W. Bush got that tactics down to perfection and most of the US citizens fell for it.

They couldn't start a war if individual people refused to participate.

Here is an illustration:

Conflicting loyalties

In grade seven, dripping with compassion,
Fred and I broke into our lab to rescue the rats...
I alone was caught and grilled for an hour,
urged to tell on my friend
or I would be expelled from the school ...
I kept silent - loyalty made me a looser, a fool.

At nineteen I was called up to the army
to attack the North Vietnamese
who never did me any harm,
I refused and had to flee,
leave my family, my friends, my life behind,
rather than become a blind puppet of the state
I chose a different fate.

Later in life, as an engineer,
I was offered a lucrative contract,
to work on weapons of mass destruction...
I chose to teach instead, for pitiful wages,
and my family had to go along,
follow me where I thought I belong.

My teaching career didn't last long.
Because support was minimal;
I didn't have the time and the resources
to teach the best way possible,
I wouldn’t support mediocre education...
I had to find a new occupation.

Finally I accepted a job
in a chemical factory,
but the conflict followed me there:
I was ordered to dump digoxin in our river
and, when I refused, I was shown the door,
out on the street once more.

That was the last straw for my wife,
she had enough of my principles,
my loyalty to my convictions,
so she left me to follow my lonely path...
...and I still do, I have no choice,
I must follow the voice in my mind
that tells me what is right…
the only loyalty I cannot fight.
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phyllo
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Re: Your OWN personal morality

Post by phyllo »

No, you have a responsibility for your own actions. If you know that the customer is a thief of worse, you might take the next step and deal with it, if you feel you are up to it. But your primary responsibility is making sure that you are a positively contributing member of your society.
Okay, so you don't participate in a personal list of evil occupations/industries.
This is the group-thinking trap most people fall into.

This is also the justification game I was talking about in another thread.

Very few people actually want to invade other countries. Their leaders want to and their best inducement for citizens to comply is fear. Telling them that unless you invade them, they will invade you. G.W. Bush got that tactics down to perfection and most of the US citizens fell for it.

They couldn't start a war if individual people refused to participate.
But since people in other countries are easily swayed by group-think, then you still need to protect yourself from them.
marjoramblues
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Re: Your OWN personal morality

Post by marjoramblues »

Ned wrote:
thedoc wrote:And that leaves us with a very big problem, how to determine what is the 'right thing' in every unique situation, for every individual person. That is a lot of different situations every day times almost 7 billion individual people in this world, can you solve that in an afternoon? including coffee breaks?
You have to look in the mirror every day and ask yourself: what is it I am giving back?

If you are only interested in taking, then you are a thief.

If you make harmful things (land-mines, poisons, oil-spills, etc., ) then you are worse than a thief -- you are being destructive.

If you make useless things that nobody needs, then you are a drain on society.

If you make useful things that are demonstrably good for other people (don't need any fancy justification) then you are an honourable, useful member of your species.

These are your choices as I see them.
Absolute crap.
And no, I am not going to give reasons why I say this.
Work it out.
Ned
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Re: Your OWN personal morality

Post by Ned »

phyllo wrote:But since people in other countries are easily swayed by group-think, then you still need to protect yourself from them.
This is still group-thinking.

The only person whose actions you are responsible for is yourself.

In case of murder, the only person directly responsible is the one pulling the trigger. Without him the murder could not happen.

No matter what pressure he was under, no matter who blackmailed him with what -- he was the one who pulled the trigger.

Your individual participation in a war would not change the outcome of the war.

You have to make sure that you are not sucked into immoral and unethical actions (like killing people on the other side of the world who never did you any harm) by those who pull your strings and justify your unethical action by their usual bullshit, like the non-existent weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Those draft dodgers who escaped to Canada during the Vietnam war were ethical (even if not all of them had ethical reasons).

Those who went to fight were victims of their murderous unethical leaders.

As I said in one of my poems:

...When it’s all over
with nothing accomplished,
our leaders will make
noble speeches
while wreaths will be hung
over crosses in neat rows
in white forests,
flags draped over caskets,
and the heroic wool
over stupid, stupid, gullible minds,
lamenting the fate
of the glorious dead.
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phyllo
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Re: Your OWN personal morality

Post by phyllo »

In case of murder, the only person directly responsible is the one pulling the trigger. Without him the murder could not happen.
I'm not responsible for the actions of the murderer, but I am responsible for defending myself from the murderer.
You have to make sure that you are not sucked into immoral and unethical actions (like killing people on the other side of the world who never did you any harm) by those who pull your strings and justify your unethical action by their usual bullshit, like the non-existent weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
I don't think that having weapons which protect you from murderers and group-think armies is immoral or unethical. It would be unwise not have the weapons available. I am forced to take precautions but I'm not actually being sucked into anything.

Fabricated Bush-style wars are another ethical issue.
Ned
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Re: Your OWN personal morality

Post by Ned »

If I were attacked, I would defend myself.

If my wife was attacked, I would go berserk and defend her with everything I got.

If my neighbor was attacked, then I would try to defend her, making sure that I don't endanger my wife.

If I was told that another country on the other side of the world wants to attack me, I would tell them to bullshit someone else.

Best policy, according to a very famous line in the "Karate Kid" movie, by the old Japanese master: "best defense is not being there when punch comes".

Much smarter than stockpiling weapons.

I don't do group-think, ever.

I am not a citizen of any country, not a member of any group, I am only myself -- a human being, among 7 billion others on this planet, trying to live as peaceful and productive life as I can.

I don't do tribal warfare.

I have evolved beyond that.
thedoc
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Re: Your OWN personal morality

Post by thedoc »

phyllo wrote:And where does responsibility end?

Should you not investigate every customer, of the hobby store, to determine whether he is paying with money acquired by theft, dealing in illegal drugs, manufacture of munitions, etc?

If a customer came in wearing a sign stating where they had gotten their money, I might have hesitated, I could have gotten into my own trouble for receiving stolen goods. BTW, does that apply to money? I did have a few customers who worked for the military, does that count?
Ned
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Re: Your OWN personal morality

Post by Ned »

My primary purpose in this thread was to highlight your responsibility for your own actions.

Dealing with other persons' actions is an entirely different topic, we may discuss in another thread.
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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk »

"Best policy, according to a very famous line in the "Karate Kid" movie, by the old Japanese master: "best defense is not being there when punch comes"."

A good policy.

Equally good (and, often, more applicable): 'If you know someone is coming to kill you, get up early in the morning and go kill him (or, her) first.'
duszek
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Re: Your OWN personal morality

Post by duszek »

How about sending out a mediator ?
Who might calm things down ?
thedoc
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Re:

Post by thedoc »

henry quirk wrote:"Best policy, according to a very famous line in the "Karate Kid" movie, by the old Japanese master: "best defense is not being there when punch comes"."

A good policy.

Equally good (and, often, more applicable): 'If you know someone is coming to kill you, get up early in the morning and go kill him (or, her) first.'
Or keep a look out for trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQcdI_ZRYjM
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