The universe expands ...

[Godfree]

Ah, the darkness that is the American dream. A fantasy, misguided self reightous exceptionalism, all that is bad about capitalism..

And hiding behond the guise of religion.

The Police Chief of the world. Self appointed of course.

In the stone age culturaly and intellectually. "We need machine guns to hunt turkey", "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy wih a gun".

Need I say anymore?

The country is a disgrace to democracy and are the loudest voice for it on the planet.

"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under."

Ronald Reagan

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."

Albert Einstein

$17,326,086,211,142.09 and counting...very quickly...

America's financial quagmire...

http://www.usdebtclocks.com/

Xenu out.

Facing reality , seems too much to ask for some people ,
they can't face the fact that there is no god ,
that they can't continually tell the rest of the world what to do ,
and that they can't keep getting deeper in debt without it ending in disaster ,
I think the strategy is to put as much of the wealth of the country as they can,
in the hands of a few private individuals ,
so when the government falls over , the money is tucked away in private hands ,
thus supposedly saving the country and the economy ,
as these rich and powerful people will be there propping up the economy until government gets it's shit together again
the flaw with this thinking , is ,
rich and powerful individuals can be dumb, religious criminal , insane ,
'and may not have the big picture or the countries wellbeing in mind at all ,
it could be another fundamentalist religious dictator ,like Syria ,
democracy is the answer to dictators ,
government is democracy ,
the power and the wealth should be in the hands of government ,
not a few private individuals who just want to run a muck and pursue ,
their own private agenda,
which may or may not be desirable for the country as a whole ,
so capitalism is wrong to want the power and the money in the hands of private individuals ,
the government should be the most powerful , and be in control ,
america has let religion control it's government ,
oil , controls it's government ,
tobacco ,tells the american government what to do ,
Cocacola tells the american government what to do ",no will will not reduce the size of our sugar drinks ",
america is out of control because private individuals are controlling things,
they have let the private individuals become so powerful they can't stop them now ,
it's a run away train and the world can see it must eventually crash ,
how long they remain stupid is a hard call to make at this stage ,
I'm picking they will never get on top of things ,
until they take religion down a peg or two,,, bring it on ,,!!!

[SpheresOfBalance]

Godfree, if you believe the universe is infinite, how do you explain something that was never created actually existing. If there is no point at which we can say things came together to form the universe, then we cannot say the universe was formed at all, and in that case it doesn't exist. That's clearly not true, so we must conclude that the universe has a finite history.

So what you're saying is that the truth of the matter 'must' fit our model, i.e., that we are born and we die, as if our knowledge is currently all inclusive?

Without knowing 'everything,' we can only theorize, and thus one theory is just as good as another, as our current limit in knowledge does not necessarily beg the truth, as some may think. It's convenient, sure, as we back ourselves up against it, but it shall always remain inconclusive, so...

Have at it!

[SpheresOfBalance]

Or we could just be a finite universe in the set of infinite universes. Not that it matters philosophically as metaphysics won't solve this issue.

Only as it currently stands. The precipice of our knowledge is not necessarily the defining algorithm. Thus it seems that your recurring belief on this subject, is an opinion and can be stated, and that's as far as it necessarily goes.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Godfree, you haven't made any suggestion that would solve the paradox of how something physical can not be created. I know the only solution is that the universe is not physical, it's a mental phenomena, and as with our own mental existence has as its beginning the change from unconscious to conscious. If you want an explanation of what I mean, you can read my post in the thread "absolute fact", and we can discuss how it relates to this topic.

I haven't read as per your suggestion, however this topic is the hugest topic of them all, no pun intended, and is not necessarily answered by our current edge of understanding. As to this topic, it shall most probably remain a coin toss for many millennia to come, at least relative to the absolute truth of everything.

[SpheresOfBalance]

What you've written is not really true, for a start it requires energy to turn hydrogen into helium, which means that in terms of energy, every time the lighter elements are transformed into heavier elements, energy is lost in the form of heat and light radiation. This radiation takes the form of photons, and other elementary particles, and though it's true that black holes suck in all this matter, it's not true that they produce hydrogen. What they eject is more radiation, which spreads around the universe and cannot be used as fuel for stars. 

The second law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of a system either increases or stays the same, this means that the universe as a closed system is always becoming more disordered, as the space is slowly filled with radiation, energy becomes increasingly dissipated and useless.

You only have to look at the way heat flows from something that's hot, to something that's cold, this is the systems move towards equilibrium, what your suggesting would entail the opposite, particles of a low energy state, with a high degree of entropy, coming together to form a high energy particle with a lower quantity of entropy. As this has never been observed to happen on earth, what makes you think it happens anywhere else?

I'm not suggesting there was ever a time that there didn't exist a metaphysical potential for things to exist, but what I am saying is that the physicality which we observe exists as a result of the potential being actualised, which did take place at some point. This point can also be understood to be the beginning of time, as there was no previous physical event, and no physical event means no time or change.

Yes that's pretty much the current state of belief! As if it's necessarily the end point on such a massive topic.

The real problem is that both of you assert, with your conviction, that you know, when it's really impossible to do so, with any necessary amount of truth, at this particular time.

My point is that it's really easy to back yourself up against the edge of what mankind thinks he knows, and merely parrot those ideas. But it takes a 'real' thinker, to brave the unknown waters of esoteric possibilities, that is not part of the programmed response.

[SpheresOfBalance]

I see the term universe to encompass "everything" ,
the whole universe , this multiverse , universes within universes ,,???
surely thats just changing the meaning of the word universe ,
as I see it we have one universe ,
we can talk about this part or that , but it's all part of the one universe ,
some like to think we are a finite known universe that is expanding ,
within a infinite universe , I don't call that an expanding universe ,
I call that indigestion ,,!!!

It may well be but if the 'universe' is a 'multiverse' and if things are to be infinite then I'd guess that in an infinite universe all possible universes should exist then your problem would be solved as finite universes should exist and we appear to be in one of them.

Yes, but only because us humans, for some time, have used the term 'universe' to indicate everything, which I think is the real target, 'everything,' whatever that might actually entail, however big or complicated that might be, shall become the one thing, by whatever term. We can only speak with words of 'current' understanding.

[Godfree]

I see the term universe to encompass "everything" ,
the whole universe , this multiverse , universes within universes ,,???
surely thats just changing the meaning of the word universe ,
as I see it we have one universe ,
we can talk about this part or that , but it's all part of the one universe ,
some like to think we are a finite known universe that is expanding ,
within a infinite universe , I don't call that an expanding universe ,
I call that indigestion ,,!!!

It may well be but if the 'universe' is a 'multiverse' and if things are to be infinite then I'd guess that in an infinite universe all possible universes should exist then your problem would be solved as finite universes should exist and we appear to be in one of them.

Yes, but only because us humans, for some time, have used the term 'universe' to indicate everything, which I think is the real target, 'everything,' whatever that might actually entail, however big or complicated that might be, shall become the one thing, by whatever term. We can only speak with words of 'current' understanding.

To pick up on a point above , James , black holes don't make Hydrogen ,???
you say they just produce photons and "other" elementary particles ,?
so what about when black holes go bang ,??
they must , at some point , otherwise there would eventually be just one black hole ,
if you accept that time goes back for infinity , then by now there would be one black hole ,
so these black holes seem about as common as galaxies , a similar number ,
each galaxy is a closed system , thats why they are round , or basically round ,
the matter is shot out into space , when they go bang , after gathering all of the elements from that galaxy , but the matter doesn't escape the gravitational pull of the collective matter still in the area ,
draws them back to re-form the galaxy all over again ,
this is how some people see the universe , and the big bang , the big crunch when it all comes back together ,but as I have said on many occasions , bangs happen on a galactic scale not a universal one ,,!!!

[Arising_uk]

Or we could just be a finite universe in the set of infinite universes. Not that it matters philosophically as metaphysics won't solve this issue.

Only as it currently stands. The precipice of our knowledge is not necessarily the defining algorithm. Thus it seems that your recurring belief on this subject, is an opinion and can be stated, and that's as far as it necessarily goes.

Care to speak coherent English? What's your point?

[Arising_uk]

Yes, but only because us humans, for some time, have used the term 'universe' to indicate everything, which I think is the real target, 'everything,' whatever that might actually entail, however big or complicated that might be, shall become the one thing, by whatever term. We can only speak with words of 'current' understanding.

What are you talking about?

[SpheresOfBalance]

Or we could just be a finite universe in the set of infinite universes. Not that it matters philosophically as metaphysics won't solve this issue.

Only as it currently stands. The precipice of our knowledge is not necessarily the defining algorithm. Thus it seems that your recurring belief on this subject, is an opinion and can be stated, and that's as far as it necessarily goes.

Care to speak coherent English? What's your point?

Care to think more before knocking my language?
But of course the fact that your tired old bit about metaphysics, like everything else, is dated.

[SpheresOfBalance]

Yes, but only because us humans, for some time, have used the term 'universe' to indicate everything, which I think is the real target, 'everything,' whatever that might actually entail, however big or complicated that might be, shall become the one thing, by whatever term. We can only speak with words of 'current' understanding.

What are you talking about?

If there is more 'outside' the universe, once known, does it become part of the universe? Would the fact of a multiverse preclude it being understood as a universe? You know, 'one' in terms of everything.

I don't see it as that hard to understand.

[Arising_uk]

If there is more 'outside' the universe, once known, does it become part of the universe? Would the fact of a multiverse preclude it being understood as a universe? You know, 'one' in terms of everything.

I don't see it as that hard to understand.

You could understand it this way but then you'd be missing the exact metaphysical concept of a multiverse as opposed to a universe.

[Arising_uk]

Care to think more before knocking my language?

My apologies. Can you rephrase what you said into words I can parse a meaning from. If not I'll take it as another example of your confusion about how language and meaning works.

But of course the fact that your tired old bit about metaphysics, like everything else, is dated.

How would you know given you know nothing?

[Arising_uk]

... this is how some people see the universe , and the big bang , the big crunch when it all comes back together ...

How many times!! The maths and data are in, there is not going to be any big crunch. We live in an open universe. So ever expanding, long, cold, night-time is the fate.

[James Markham]

Godfree, I don't except that the universe is infinite, that was one of the points you were arguing for. And no, black holes don't make hydrogen, or go bang, they radiate their energy slowly.