is th universe a fictional object in consciousness

[henry quirk]

"that doesn't prove you aren't a brain in a vat"

I may be a brain in a vat, but sumthin' still exists outside me (even if it's just impulses fed to me by wire) 'cause -- again -- I'm too dumb to imagine the world (in all the dazzling complexity and perplexity I perceive).

[henry quirk]

"What is your identity then relative to the world or as you put it the whole lot of shit thats out there thats not you.is that you or your brain thinking you exists.or does a you exist that thinks its you but aint."

What am I?

I'm an animal of a particular and peculiar complexity living in (embedded in) an environment.

I'm an animal that is *recursive (because of that particular and peculiar complexity).

I'm organic, on-going, and physically discrete from my surroundings (there is 'me' and there is 'not me').

I'm a cluster of electrical and chemical processes.

I'm an autonomy.

...or...

I'm bio-automation with the delusion of grandeur.

*shrug*









*not only conscious of what's outside me but also of myself.

[Impenitent]

"that doesn't prove you aren't a brain in a vat"

I may be a brain in a vat, but sumthin' still exists outside me (even if it's just impulses fed to me by wire) 'cause -- again -- I'm too dumb to imagine the world (in all the dazzling complexity and perplexity I perceive).

which one? the evil genius or god?

-Imp

[thedoc]

"that doesn't prove you aren't a brain in a vat"

I may be a brain in a vat, but sumthin' still exists outside me (even if it's just impulses fed to me by wire) 'cause -- again -- I'm too dumb to imagine the world (in all the dazzling complexity and perplexity I perceive).

which one? the evil genius or god?

-Imp

Perhaps both? Stub you toe on a rock and prove that it is real and not just your imagination.

[Impenitent]

internal mental activity does not prove an external world...

-Imp

[henry quirk]

"which one? the evil genius or god?"

Irrelevant.

The issue is not the nature of what's outside of me, only that I'm certain sumthin' 'is' outside of me.

#

"internal mental activity does not prove an external world..."

Agreed.

Understanding, however, that I'm too dumb to, as I say, 'imagine the world (in all the dazzling complexity and perplexity I perceive)', while not an unchallengeable 'proof', certainly points in the direction of 'sumthin' existing outside and apart from me.

[James Markham]

Henry, what about the possibility that facts about the universe, and reality in general, is only finalised as and when, and in the manner you understand it. For example, someone can articulate on qm, but unless you understand it, you don't know it's true. Once you can understand it, and it becomes fact, you are no longer to stupid to have created it in that way.

[Immanuel Can]

In a sense, this whole thing comes down to being a non-issue.

Even supposing that reality not a concrete fact outside of me but is a projection of the mind, how does that make my life any different? I still perceive and treat it in exactly the same way either way.

Now, if someone wants to go on to say, "Since reality is a projection of my mind, I can control what happens to me by sheer effort of my will," or "Since reality is a projection I can flap my arms and fly," then we've got something interesting.

But unless I'm talking to Tom Cruise, I'm assuming no one is being that goofy.

So why would it matter?

[thedoc]

In a sense, this whole thing comes down to being a non-issue.

Even supposing that reality not a concrete fact outside of me but is a projection of the mind, how does that make my life any different? I still perceive and treat it in exactly the same way either way.

Now, if someone wants to go on to say, "Since reality is a projection of my mind, I can control what happens to me by sheer effort of my will," or "Since reality is a projection I can flap my arms and fly," then we've got something interesting.

But unless I'm talking to Tom Cruise, I'm assuming no one is being that goofy.

So why would it matter?

Interestingly, years ago I read that there were some who believed exactly that. One of the examples was that of a mountain and that it would disappear if one could come to the right state of mind. In the Bible Jesus states that if you have faith as much as a mustard seed you can command a mountain to remove from one place to another. Eastern Mysticism and Christianity having similar concepts.

[James Markham]

In a sense, this whole thing comes down to being a non-issue.

Even supposing that reality not a concrete fact outside of me but is a projection of the mind, how does that make my life any different? I still perceive and treat it in exactly the same way either way.

Now, if someone wants to go on to say, "Since reality is a projection of my mind, I can control what happens to me by sheer effort of my will," or "Since reality is a projection I can flap my arms and fly," then we've got something interesting.

But unless I'm talking to Tom Cruise, I'm assuming no one is being that goofy.

So why would it matter?

Would anybody ever know, if the effects were subtle, but meaningful, then your mind may be effecting your reality dramatically. Who knows what determines the course of our personal reality? And who knows what part our personal beliefs and attitude have on our options?

[thedoc]

It's also interesting how this concept shows up in different places, I read of this group while reading about eastern philosophy, Zen and Yoga and in the Bible.

There was also a Science Fiction Story where a computer programmer was called to program a computer to print out the names of God for a Monastery in Tibet. The belief was in the Monastery that once all the names of God were known and written out, the world would end. The computer started printing out the names and the programmer left and was on his way when he looked up at the night sky and noticed that stars were disappearing one at a time.

And this. Listen very carefully to the last verse of this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a_4fBH_7dk

[thedoc]

FYI, Flying is no big deal, you just need to learn how to throw yourself at the ground, - and miss. It also helps to be distracted so that gravity isn't paying attention to you.

[henry quirk]

"Henry, what about the possibility that facts about the universe, and reality in general, is only finalised as and when, and in the manner you understand it. For example, someone can articulate on qm, but unless you understand it, you don't know it's true. Once you can understand it, and it becomes fact, you are no longer to stupid to have created it in that way."

My dumbness is more basic than than that.

That is (for example): the tree I'm lookin' at right now, right outside the window, this thing is not a figment of my imagination...no freakin' way I'd ever come up with the thing we call 'tree' all by my lonesome. My understanding (or lack of understanding) about tree biology doesn't change the fact that 'tree' (the smell, the texture, the feel, the sight) is not sumthin' I'd come up with on my own.

So: sumthin' exists there...sumthin' apart from me, independent of me...that sumthin' may be a authentic 'thing' I apprehend in a limited way through my limited senses, or, it could be a signal fed, by way of wire, to my naked brain as it floats in a vat in a lab in Cleveland, Ohio.

Either way: the information about 'tree' comes to me and then I model 'tree' in my head.

No way I'm concocting 'tree' out of my own fantasizing.

##

"So why would it matter?"

It really doesn't.

If I am a brain in a vat in a lab in Cleveland: there's not a helluva lot I can do about the circumstance.

I can't even, in a meaningful way, investigate the possibility that I'm NOT a disembodied brain.

All I got is the limited information I apprehend through my senses (or fed to me by wire), and the model of the world I generate based on that information.

Whatever I 'really' am, and whatever the world 'really' is, I seem to use one (myself) navigate the other (the world) successfully.

So: no, it doesn't matter...but it's fun to jack around with the notions...that's enough for me.

##

"if the effects were subtle, but meaningful, then your mind may be effecting your reality dramatically"

You folks better hope and pray what runs through my head has no real effect on Reality!

Cthulhu ain't got nuthin' on me...

[thedoc]

"if the effects were subtle, but meaningful, then your mind may be effecting your reality dramatically"

You folks better hope and pray what runs through my head has no real effect on Reality!

Cthulhu ain't got nuthin' on me...

Better add my name to the list of scary realities, better that I'm not the main character in "The Lathe Of Heaven".

[henry quirk]

As I recall: a good book.