Is all consciousness the same

[thedoc]

Unless you are speaking from beyond the grave, I can't accept the validity of what you are saying. and must view it as speculation.

You presume there is a beyond the grave that people can talk from ,,???
unless I am/ was dead and speaking from there you won't believe there is no beyond ,,???
do you ever get the feeling that you are confused,,???

I presume that people can choose to speak to me from beyond the grave, but so far no-one has, proves nothing.

Absence of proof, is not proof of absence.

I really don't feel confused about this, do you?

[James Markham]

Godfree wrote:
After death , your dead , and don't go anywhere , or do anything
the live electrical impulses that are your consciousness ,
are being generated by the brain with electrical control and manipulation of those memories ,
so when you are dead the signal goes dead no way to manipulate the memories that are now fading and being lost because the power is off , your dead ,
there are obviously many amongst us who can't handle the idea of being dead , the end ,
so that is what I would advise you to do in order to grow up ,
face the idea that you will no longer exist , embrace it and accept it,
and then you won't need to keep coming up with these rediculous fantasy stories ,
to try and feel ok about your inevitable DEATH.

The fact is we do die, but it's also a fact that your life had a beginning, so we all personally know that we are able to attain the state of living from a non-living state. So really, to assume that when you die that's it, is a bit illogical.

As for your response to my previous question, I was asking about the physiological difference in the two instances. Everything you wrote was simply devoid of any understanding as to what the question was.

[Ginkgo]

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[Ginkgo]

The fact is, nobody understands exactly what consciousness is, or why there is such a thing as what it is like to be conscious. Much like nobody knows or understands why and how we have the other forces that determine the course of events in reality.

It's true that no one know exactly what consciousness is, but people such as Prinz and Chalmers and Hameroff are helping to but the pieces together, all be it using different approaches. We know a reasonable amount about it at the moment.

[Godfree]

Unless you are speaking from beyond the grave, I can't accept the validity of what you are saying. and must view it as speculation.

You presume there is a beyond the grave that people can talk from ,,???
unless I am/ was dead and speaking from there you won't believe there is no beyond ,,???
do you ever get the feeling that you are confused,,???

I presume that people can choose to speak to me from beyond the grave, but so far no-one has, proves nothing.

Absence of proof, is not proof of absence.

I really don't feel confused about this, do you?

Proves every thing , your honesty there has exposed the whole truth and nothing but the truth ,
nobody has ever been spoken to from beyond the grave ,
nobody has ever been spoken to by a god ,
nobody has seen a miracle , it's all just lies and bullshit ,
wishful thinking , irrational conclusions , madness abounds ,
you just summed up reality mate ,
nobody has ever experienced any of the heaven and hell they claim ,
it's all lies and bullshit ,,,!!!!

[Godfree]

Godfree wrote:
After death , your dead , and don't go anywhere , or do anything
the live electrical impulses that are your consciousness ,
are being generated by the brain with electrical control and manipulation of those memories ,
so when you are dead the signal goes dead no way to manipulate the memories that are now fading and being lost because the power is off , your dead ,
there are obviously many amongst us who can't handle the idea of being dead , the end ,
so that is what I would advise you to do in order to grow up ,
face the idea that you will no longer exist , embrace it and accept it,
and then you won't need to keep coming up with these rediculous fantasy stories ,
to try and feel ok about your inevitable DEATH.

The fact is we do die, but it's also a fact that your life had a beginning, so we all personally know that we are able to attain the state of living from a non-living state. So really, to assume that when you die that's it, is a bit illogical.

As for your response to my previous question, I was asking about the physiological difference in the two instances. Everything you wrote was simply devoid of any understanding as to what the question was.

Clearly you do not understand logic ,
my definition , the most probable ,
you say the fact that we didn't exist , and then we did ,
is proof we won't reach a don't exist anymore ,???
thats not logical at all ,
it would be logical to conclude that because we didn't exist and now we do ,
that we will then not exist again .
now heres the bit your really confused on ,
you say we are able to attain the state of living from the non living state,???
thats madness ,
we don't exist yet ,
we don't attain life ,
we don't exist yet ,
our parents give life to us and our life gives us a consciousness ,
until the moment of conception ,
we don't exist ,
can you get your brain around you not existing ,
or are you too special and that sounds too final for someone sooo special ,,,???

[jackles]

But godless what if your existance (consciousness) pre existed.with your present local idea of you being in that in pre existance(consciousness).so when your brain dies you find your self in a existant state that you cant under stand as being you.and this is the case if the brain derives consciousness from nonlocality.nonlocality would pre exist all events including your present local understanding of you.

[James Markham]

Godfree wrote:
After death , your dead , and don't go anywhere , or do anything
the live electrical impulses that are your consciousness ,
are being generated by the brain with electrical control and manipulation of those memories ,
so when you are dead the signal goes dead no way to manipulate the memories that are now fading and being lost because the power is off , your dead ,
there are obviously many amongst us who can't handle the idea of being dead , the end ,
so that is what I would advise you to do in order to grow up ,
face the idea that you will no longer exist , embrace it and accept it,
and then you won't need to keep coming up with these rediculous fantasy stories ,
to try and feel ok about your inevitable DEATH.

The fact is we do die, but it's also a fact that your life had a beginning, so we all personally know that we are able to attain the state of living from a non-living state. So really, to assume that when you die that's it, is a bit illogical.

As for your response to my previous question, I was asking about the physiological difference in the two instances. Everything you wrote was simply devoid of any understanding as to what the question was.

Clearly you do not understand logic ,
my definition , the most probable ,
you say the fact that we didn't exist , and then we did ,
is proof we won't reach a don't exist anymore ,???
thats not logical at all ,
it would be logical to conclude that because we didn't exist and now we do ,
that we will then not exist again .
now heres the bit your really confused on ,
you say we are able to attain the state of living from the non living state,???
thats madness ,
we don't exist yet ,
we don't attain life ,
we don't exist yet ,
our parents give life to us and our life gives us a consciousness ,
until the moment of conception ,
we don't exist ,
can you get your brain around you not existing ,
or are you too special and that sounds too final for someone sooo special ,,,???

Godfree, your starting to sound like a bit of a p****, on the one hand you say the universe is infinite, which if you understood the concept would necessitate that you own to every possible event happening an infinite amount of times, and then on the other hand you state that we can only live once, like it's some kind of acknowledged fact.

I'll admit that after reading you like naturism and writing songs, the idea of you sitting cross legged and naked, with a guitar, for eternal company would no doubt horrify you and many others, but maybe you could change.

[Godfree]

Godfree wrote:
After death , your dead , and don't go anywhere , or do anything
the live electrical impulses that are your consciousness ,
are being generated by the brain with electrical control and manipulation of those memories ,
so when you are dead the signal goes dead no way to manipulate the memories that are now fading and being lost because the power is off , your dead ,
there are obviously many amongst us who can't handle the idea of being dead , the end ,
so that is what I would advise you to do in order to grow up ,
face the idea that you will no longer exist , embrace it and accept it,
and then you won't need to keep coming up with these rediculous fantasy stories ,
to try and feel ok about your inevitable DEATH.

The fact is we do die, but it's also a fact that your life had a beginning, so we all personally know that we are able to attain the state of living from a non-living state. So really, to assume that when you die that's it, is a bit illogical.

As for your response to my previous question, I was asking about the physiological difference in the two instances. Everything you wrote was simply devoid of any understanding as to what the question was.

Clearly you do not understand logic ,
my definition , the most probable ,
you say the fact that we didn't exist , and then we did ,
is proof we won't reach a don't exist anymore ,???
thats not logical at all ,
it would be logical to conclude that because we didn't exist and now we do ,
that we will then not exist again .
now heres the bit your really confused on ,
you say we are able to attain the state of living from the non living state,???
thats madness ,
we don't exist yet ,
we don't attain life ,
we don't exist yet ,
our parents give life to us and our life gives us a consciousness ,
until the moment of conception ,
we don't exist ,
can you get your brain around you not existing ,
or are you too special and that sounds too final for someone sooo special ,,,???

Godfree, your starting to sound like a bit of a p****, on the one hand you say the universe is infinite, which if you understood the concept would necessitate that you own to every possible event happening an infinite amount of times, and then on the other hand you state that we can only live once, like it's some kind of acknowledged fact.

I'll admit that after reading you like naturism and writing songs, the idea of you sitting cross legged and naked, with a guitar, for eternal company would no doubt horrify you and many others, but maybe you could change.

I started having these conversations about 50 years ago when I was six ,
I declared myself an Atheist then and began the journey of discovering the real world ,
I will try and make it simple for you ,
In an infinite universe there are infinite possibilities and an infinite number of variations upon any one theme ,
however ,
our variation is so far away from any of the other inhabited worlds ,
that we will probably never know of them or them of us ,
So , we are left with logic and speculation,
"if there was ever nothing then nothing is all there would ever be"
conclusion ,,,there was never nothing ,,, no beginning ,,,,no moment of creation ,,,,what do we need god for again ,,??
Life is amazing without any gods spooks or devils ,
the fire that started way back in a single cell , has been carried all the way to you ,
and never let go out , not once and I have the proof ,,,,you ,
you would not exist without the fire the little light that each living thing passes on to the next generation ,
the spark of life , in the ancient world it took lightening to provide the spark of life ,
but we have a battery pack in every sperm ,
to provide the spark of life ,
that spark has been kept going for about 4 billion years.
an infinite number of possibilities ,, yes ,
but an infinite number of years and light years to see them all ,
how does a ghost keep a spark , where is it's battery pack ,,???

[James Markham]

Godfree, ok clever clogs, why and how did the spark begin?
And don't say lightening, because that only worked in Frankenstein.

[Godfree]

Godfree, ok clever clogs, why and how did the spark begin?
And don't say lightening, because that only worked in Frankenstein.

What planet are you from and when did you get here ,,????
in the fifties they did an experiment that PROVED HOW LIFE BEGAN ,
they took the elements of the early atmosphere and then ,, yup you guessed it ,
sparked it in to life , until they added the spark the experiment did not work ,
you can find a nice version of this entire story in Carl Sagans , The Cosmos ,
a lovely series that you would be well advised to see,
it explains evolution from the very first spark , to today ,
A thirteen part tv series I saw here in NZ on free to air tv about ten years ago,
have you deliberately not read anything that wasn't religious ,,???

[James Markham]

I think you must be confusing this reality with the one you just woke up from, scientist haven't the first idea how proteins are formed naturally, what your talking about is the formation of amino acids, which are not life. The mechanisms that enable amino acids to form protein molecules (which are still not alive), is not known, or replicable. Even merely knowing how proteins form will still not tell us how they form genes, RNA or DNA.

And for the record, I'm not religious in any way, I simply attempt to understand reality in its completeness.

[Godfree]

I think you must be confusing this reality with the one you just woke up from, scientist haven't the first idea how proteins are formed naturally, what your talking about is the formation of amino acids, which are not life. The mechanisms that enable amino acids to form protein molecules (which are still not alive), is not known, or replicable. Even merely knowing how proteins form will still not tell us how they form genes, RNA or DNA.

And for the record, I'm not religious in any way, I simply attempt to understand reality in its completeness.

Nuclaic acid , and they can as Carl Sagan put it , "make crude copies of themselves"
if you are genuine in your search for the truth , I can give it to you plain and simple ,
there is no god , no devil no life after death ,
aliens have not visited,probed or in any other way entered our being ,
there is no Loch Ness Monster , big foot ,miracles ,
it's all madness and the world is so heavily entrenched in it ,
that they can't see it ,,!!!

[James Markham]

Godfree, thanks for all that, it explains everything. Finally, thanks to you, I can give up thinking there's anything more to discuss.

One thing does puzzle me thou, if you have all the answers figured out, what do you bother with a philosophy forum for? You surely don't expect me to believe its due to philanthropy, and your duty to the stupid.

[QMan]

There is no evidence or proof that any god spirit world other side exists ,
so I base my understanding of the world on what we can prove ,
and I do know exactly what I'm trying to say ,
I'm trying to say that in order for there to be this universal consciousness ,
you have to have a spirit or god or other world for this to be based in ,
and no such god or world exists ,
there is no spirit world ghosts angels spirits or devils ,
there is no other brain , in your brain , unless your a bit shcizo ,
so lets stop the attempt to rationalize that a spirit world must be real , get real ,
and face your own mortality.

Are you willing to accept anyone else's experience and insight besides Carl Sagan's?

1. For example, my sister is a nurse in an intensive care unit I can vouch for her. She is competent, sane, not prone to hallucinate, and has all her marbles. She's been a nurse over 30 years. Every once in a while a (mostly elderly) patient does not make it and will die after she cared for them for an extended period of time.
It has happened on a few occasions that she returns to the room just after the patient died and she sees the patient standing at the foot of the bed as a spirit smiling at her and thanking her for the care she had provided and then disappears.

Now, do you have nurse friends? They might know about this and it should be easy enough to research.

2. Please watch this video of Dr. Mary Neal , who died, went to heaven and came back.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wW2TLZLYgm ... W2TLZLYgm4

Or perhaps you fall in this category?

Can an irresistible force move an immovable object? Same as - can God reach an unreachable person (without doing damage?)