Delusions of Man regarding God and religion

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Delusions of Man regarding God and religion

Post by Immanuel Can »

Isn't there a natural law someplace against absurdity?
Well, if there isn't, there should be. :)

Oh, I agree with Lennox's estimation of the probabilities. My argument, though, is not that probability favours some version of the cosmos I wish to advance myself, but rather that it *does not* help produce the model the proponents of the Multiverse Hypothesis are trying to advance.

If I were proposing a model of the universe myself, then you'd be right to expect me to defend it with a great deal of compelling evidence; but I'm not. I'm leaving the question real nature of the universe open, yet-to-be-answered. But what I am saying is that *their* mathematical tricks don't work the way they want us to believe they do. The mathematics actually are against their view being true. That's where I would stop my claim, for the moment.
QMan
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Re: Delusions of Man regarding God and religion

Post by QMan »

Immanuel Can wrote:
Isn't there a natural law someplace against absurdity?
Well, if there isn't, there should be. :)

Oh, I agree with Lennox's estimation of the probabilities. My argument, though, is not that probability favours some version of the cosmos I wish to advance myself, but rather that it *does not* help produce the model the proponents of the Multiverse Hypothesis are trying to advance.

If I were proposing a model of the universe myself, then you'd be right to expect me to defend it with a great deal of compelling evidence; but I'm not. I'm leaving the question real nature of the universe open, yet-to-be-answered. But what I am saying is that *their* mathematical tricks don't work the way they want us to believe they do. The mathematics actually are against their view being true. That's where I would stop my claim, for the moment.
I see your point but that's why I put in the caveat. Lennox (and I) do not question the sophistication, accuracy and conclusions these theoretical physicists have concerning their model. The fact that it includes destruction of universes introduces a rate dependency (for creation and destruction) that may alleviate the infinity concerns. I am just not familiar with to what extent. But my guess is that it is sufficient to remove it from the realm of trickery. The strict peer review in physics would not allow that. So it is thrown back to which has the greater probability per Lennox. And, in his and my opinion, the historical realities (probabilities) of the occurrence of supernatural events (miracles, and I would also include some of the incredible NDEs told by highly intelligent people concerning their experience with the hereafter) must trump the probabilities of unprovable theorems. These probabilities therefore imply an intelligent, directed creation that includes and defines the real nature of the universe. Namely, a physical and spiritual domain with various principalities and powers. It implies intelligent design that allows the world to evolve in the evolutionary way it does (physically and spiritually). Of course, in principle, such a creation could take the form of a multiverse also (if absurdity can be eliminated). Just that the scientist is not entitled to the prejudice that any type of reality would preclude the possibility of a creator. It is a prejudice, a deliberate, selective, personal ignoring of the probabilistic nature of our existence, if he/she does not take historical and current reported events from solid witnesses into account.
abepat
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Re: Delusions of Man regarding God and religion

Post by abepat »

I read the interesting comments and never thought my post would evoke deep discussions. Thanks to Immanuel for this. I must acknowledge that I am not a physicist nor am I a philosopher though I have dabbled in both.

In the first place, I need to acknowledge that I perhaps did not word my first proposition well. What I meant was not that there is a God or that there isn’t. My intention for readers to look at the photo and read the reflection was to point out how we limit our understanding of God to certain religious dogmas, philosophies and beliefs. Not that there is anything very wrong with holding any number of opinions since plurality is obvious given the socio-political contexts from which they arise are different. The problem arises when many hold fast to the fact that theirs is the only true religious dogmas, philosophies and beliefs. This has certainly led to fundamentalism which is a source of great concern today, leading in the past and now to intolerance, hatred and violence. Any sane person would, with the evidences that the sciences (Physics and astronomy in particular) provide (just as in the case of photos and information of the universe) and with his capacity to rational thinking, reject these extremist notions.
While reading the comments I came across several notions and argument upon which I will try to comment. My comments may not have solid philosophical or scientific ground.

1. There was this notion that that if we accept God’s existence (logic tells us that either we deny him or we don’t) then it is possible with our logic and rationality (philosophy) and with tools of research (science) we can try to understand or gain knowledge of him. This may be possible but riddled with contradictions because we think we can use logic or reasoning to understand everything. Just as in the case of the universe where we have just managed to touch the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg (knowledge) and there seems to be many theories and contradictions (multiverse, spontaneous creation, etc) how do we expect to understand the maker of this universe with logic and rationality (philosophy and science)? We can arrive at a very imperfect understanding that can only befuddle us further. In Jain philosophy, every point of view is only a relative truth not an absolute truth. This leads me to comment on reasoning and logic.

2. Logic operates on opposites or binary concepts like computing. Knowledge is assimilated and stored using opposites like light and dark, cold and heat, love and hate etc. In the case of knowledge it necessarily means the knower and the known. When this is applied in the field of God, the universe, the microcosmic world etc it fails to work with precision to give us knowledge and understanding. Let me take this argument further. For example, we have knowledge of linear time since logic assumes the opposites of a past and a future. We can understand or comprehend this. But can we understand that time is not the same everywhere in the universe depending on the point of reference, that time and space bend and that time dilates when we travel at the speed of light? This is something we can’t comprehend. However, this has been proved by mathematics. As Immanuel pointed out Maths is something that can’t be wrong.

3. Maths is logic but some of its applications in the realm of the macro and microcosmic world it is quite abstract and seems to transcend logic. I would also like to point out that both logic/reasoning and maths don’t have an independent existence like the stars and trees. It has existence only in the mind of man. It is only as real as our minds are real.

4. Just watched Lennox’s lecture a bit. He uses logic/philosophy admirably to prove his points. I don’t endorse Hawkins’s view of God. Nor do I endorse Lennox’s arguments. Lennox argues from the point of view of the monotheistic perspective (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) as he himself mentions this. Monotheism is basically born from logic/rationality and dualistic thinking. Therefore it has its limitations. Take, for example the example (of Lennox) that if y exists, then x should be its cause. What about X? Who or what caused it? We would go back to another cause and another ad infinitum. So monotheists would conveniently think of an uncaused cause or the unmoved mover or the prime mover. Is this logically correct? Are we side stepping logic? At one point, we have to abandon logic and side step it to prove God’s existence.

5. I think logic can never help us prove or understand God. In the east, there is a method of reasoning (neti- neti method : not this, not that) that proves that God is not this... God is not that.... etc, the idea being that it is not possible to describe God and if we do, it would be limiting him. This is something similar to Wittgenstein’s “Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent”.

6. Dualism has its own contradiction. I have tried to critique monotheism as a product of dualistic thinking and show its inherent inconsistency in the “Arguments of an Agnostic Dialogue 2” in this forum. So is it possible to know God? To know him would involve a knower and the known, an observer and the observed. This is dualism. Does God reveal himself to individuals? He could but I think this happens genuinely and deeply/profoundly only in the form of insights into the ultimate reality/reality of being. This in the east is called enlightenment. The problem with this form of insight is that it transcends logic and dualism. There is no subject-object, knower-known, observer-observed. Since it transcends logic it can’t be described, as language is needed to describe it (Language is a product of dualistic logic.) and there is an experiencer talking about an experience whereas in enlightenment there is only experiencing. Of course, this form of knowledge called non-dualism (adwaitha; not just that God is, God is not or many Gods) in the eastern philosophies can be discarded as just a mental projection and unreliable as it cannot be scientifically proved or philosophically argued. One can see a parallel of this in quantum physics where the observer is part of the experiment and cannot be a pure observer. When he takes a measurement, he is as much involved as the colliding particles. Or the ability of sub atomic particles to be a wave or particles or both at the same time. Similarly, observing the universe involves the observer as well, and not an independent detached observation. I’m not sure if the examples I have quoted are an apt illustration.

7. Other forms of knowing God like visions, dreams, and apparitions could be forms of revelation but I feel they are imperfect and often mental creations/projections. Since enlightenment is a rare phenomenon, I proposed a different form of knowing God or God’s will in my post. Following our innate human nature.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Delusions of Man regarding God and religion

Post by Immanuel Can »

Take, for example the example (of Lennox) that if y exists, then x should be its cause. What about X? Who or what caused it? We would go back to another cause and another ad infinitum. So monotheists would conveniently think of an uncaused cause or the unmoved mover or the prime mover. Is this logically correct? Are we side stepping logic? At one point, we have to abandon logic and side step it to prove God’s existence.
You articulate here a common misunderstanding of the view expressed by Lennox and others. There is not an infinite regress ("ad infinitum") involved, nor is the postulating of an Unmoved Mover arbitrary. Rather, the argument is as follows, and it *necessitates* an uncaused first cause to do the "moving," whether one is reasoning as a Naturalistic or a Theistic person:

That which has a beginning has a cause.
The universe had a beginning.
Therefore, the universe has a cause.


That's all simple logic, and not really easy to debate.

Premise one is the assumption of all science: things which start to happen do so because something caused them to happen. Any spacial-temporal phenomenon always has a cause. We may not always know what it is right away, but we know there will be one. If we don't accept that, we are simply rejecting science itself.

The second premise is based on the preponderance of actual evidence. Our universe manifests all the signs of having begun at a definite point in the past, such as explosive patterning and escape velocity in expansion. The current cyclical models or multiverse models are (so far failed) mental models only, and are at present neither testable or evidentiary. In any case, the multiverse dodge has its own rational problems (See my post on the article "Nonsense on Stilts," if you want more on that.) In any case, the best scientific evidence we have at the moment backs premise two, so reason tells us to back it.

Premise three is an inevitable consequence of premises one and two, so not disputable if the prior two are accepted. But this "cause" cannot itself be part of the chain of contingent events, since it is the thing we are expecting to explain the existence of all things; it must be, literally, "super-natural" in the sense of being above and beyond all our scientific laws and the chain of natural causes -- so as to function as the rational, causal explanation of how they came into existence. Were it merely a temporal cause itself, then the infinite regress problem would indeed apply.. but to both the Theistic and the Naturalistic explanations equally.

What this implies is that whether one goes with a purely Naturalistic first cause or a Divine First Cause, one is going to have to postulate the existence of something uncaused, since it has to be used to explain not only the existence of the universe but also the appearance of all the laws governing and applying to it. Admittedly, this stops short of proving anything about he nature of that First Cause; but the important point is that Naturalism does not get us out of positing an uncaused first cause. Both views end with such a claim.

I fail to see why any of this involves sidestepping logic. You can see it's a pretty straightforward syllogism, and it works very nicely. We may not learn anything from it about the *nature* of the first cause, but it shows there's nothing at all irrational about positing one. And for the nature of the First Cause, other arguments can be brought in to supplement. These will be deductive rather than inductive, but can still be offered in forms that are quite strong probabilistically. Since science itself only ever offers *probabilistic* arguments, to do so can hardly be held to be a flaw in Theism.

Finally, how can, as you say, "sidestepping logic" make it possible for us to "prove" anything? Is not the word "proof" a word that naturally implies the use of evidence and reasons? If not, then in what sense can we claim to have "proof" for anything at all? Or again, you say...
I think logic can never help us prove or understand God.
If by "prove" you mean "show beyond any possibility of rational doubt," then, as you say, that only happens in maths. But if by "prove" you mean "provide significant rational evidence for," then your claim seems unjustified: you'd have to dismiss all the rational Theistic arguments entirely, which you could surely only do if you actually refuted them (which you have not yet attempted to do, of course). But all you say above is that you "think" that "logic can never help," which is not actually much to ask of the evidence: any little bit of knowledge about God that comes from a Theistic argument would constitute "help."

But what about your second claim, that we can never "understand" God: do you mean "comprehend entirely"? If so, then of course you must be right: we could no more expect to understand *everything* about the Supreme Being than to drink Lake Superior, the largest freshwater lake in the world.

On the other hand, do you mean only "learn something about"? If so, then again I see no reason to think you're right about that. For while I might admit I can't drink Lake Superior, I can easily have a cup from it. I can't know *all* of God, of course; but that surely wouldn't mean I can't therefore know *anything* about Him. That just doesn't follow.

You may be right to say that logic will not give us the whole story; but is it then rational to suppose it can't give us any useful *part* of the story or function as an important aspect of our search for answers or as support of reasonable belief?

We may yet have important use for logic, even if the referent is God.
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