absolute fact
absolute fact
Absolute fact state = existence without happening or event. Yes absolute fact is a sizeless void in any terms of time or space it never happened and will never happen cos its an absolute fact and always was.its the factual cause of all happening sizelike timespace events.its an absolute limitless fact relative to which all else is virtual fiction.scientific laws are only fictional facts.or places where fact and fiction are realized as in e=mc.they are not absolute facts they are fact in fiction so to speak.the consiousness of an observer in a fictional event is absolute fact with a fictional event in it.the whole event taking place in consciousness.movment of any kind is relativly fictional .as time and space are absractions from fact to make a fictional fabric to energy.thats absolute fact then .consciousness..o an after thought its only an absolute fact from an observation piont of view in fiction.hope you got all that.regs jackles
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James Markham
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Re: absolute fact
Jackles, I think I get that, if what you mean is that the only fact is that there is a single timeless consciousness, and that everything that consciousness experiences is tempory and transitory, then I agree.
I think you've written a very correct summary of metaphysical reality, thou I don't imagine there are many others who have reached the point that they can understand it.
I think you've written a very correct summary of metaphysical reality, thou I don't imagine there are many others who have reached the point that they can understand it.
Re: absolute fact
Ok james i was trying to encapsulate or diffine existance i am glad you have grasped what i was trying to do.regs jackles
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James Markham
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Re: absolute fact
I think you've done a good job, what you describe is to my mind the fundamental situation that exists prior to the quantifying elaboration of conscious introspection. I'd also like to say I believe that what you describe is a state that can be reinstated, so that due to its timeless aspect, and lack of mental concepts, nothing has in fact ever occurred, kind of like a reset, but actual just a return to the base set that is still yet to give rise to the conceptual imagination.
Does that make any sense to you, it's not an easy idea to articulate, but essentially I believe it's possible to return to a state in which everything is yet to happen, and the absolute truth is as you describe it.
Does that make any sense to you, it's not an easy idea to articulate, but essentially I believe it's possible to return to a state in which everything is yet to happen, and the absolute truth is as you describe it.
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reasonvemotion
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Re: absolute fact
Are you saying that Fact is nothing yet causes something and that something is Fiction?
which means nothing causes something.
which means nothing causes something.
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James Markham
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Re: absolute fact
Reason, I can only speak for myself, but as the op is very like the conclusions I've reached I will try to explain.
The first point I would make is that reality is necessarily idealistic in nature, that is to say the physical aspect of existence is essentially conceptual, which means that without any mental observations and evaluation, what we understand as physical is only a metaphysical potential for physicality. Science is slowly realising this through its experiments with subatomic particles, and how they exist as waves, but the same conclusions can be reached using logical reason.
What we think of as this and that being here or there, is only so by virtue of our ability to conceptualise position and mass, when the analysis and acknowledgement are absent all that exists is an energetic metaphysical potential for events. So in real terms this equates to there being no actual thing, but when you add consciousness, with it's capacity to create conceptual understanding, we get the things and events that we acknowledge as real.
So what is being suggested here is that the events arising as a result of conscious awareness, are much like the reality created in dreams, except they are more enduring and purposeful in their function as meaningful experience, but also like dreams, ultimately false representations of the reality that underlies and persists. It's also suggested that what can be said to be absolute fact, is simply that one conscious entity exists, within which any and every event can take place by virtue of imagination. Or I suppose it could also be construed as, there is only the potential for imagination, even the concept of self could be a transitory condition which isn't an inherent fact of existence, lots of things exist without self-awareness, so really all that exists is nothing, but with the potential to experience anything and everything, exactly like your unconscious mind, when you are engaged in dreamless sleep, you are essentially nothing, but the potential for you to awake is always there. And also, when you think about all the billions of years of the past, the potential for you to wake up and live was always present because here you are, and if you can fathom an eternal timeless past, the magnitude is infinite, so the good news is your alive, the bad news is you probably always will be weather you like it or not.
So yes, I think what you say is correct, nothing causes something, and the only absolute fact is that things can happen, but all that happens is impermanent and in no way factually absolute.
The first point I would make is that reality is necessarily idealistic in nature, that is to say the physical aspect of existence is essentially conceptual, which means that without any mental observations and evaluation, what we understand as physical is only a metaphysical potential for physicality. Science is slowly realising this through its experiments with subatomic particles, and how they exist as waves, but the same conclusions can be reached using logical reason.
What we think of as this and that being here or there, is only so by virtue of our ability to conceptualise position and mass, when the analysis and acknowledgement are absent all that exists is an energetic metaphysical potential for events. So in real terms this equates to there being no actual thing, but when you add consciousness, with it's capacity to create conceptual understanding, we get the things and events that we acknowledge as real.
So what is being suggested here is that the events arising as a result of conscious awareness, are much like the reality created in dreams, except they are more enduring and purposeful in their function as meaningful experience, but also like dreams, ultimately false representations of the reality that underlies and persists. It's also suggested that what can be said to be absolute fact, is simply that one conscious entity exists, within which any and every event can take place by virtue of imagination. Or I suppose it could also be construed as, there is only the potential for imagination, even the concept of self could be a transitory condition which isn't an inherent fact of existence, lots of things exist without self-awareness, so really all that exists is nothing, but with the potential to experience anything and everything, exactly like your unconscious mind, when you are engaged in dreamless sleep, you are essentially nothing, but the potential for you to awake is always there. And also, when you think about all the billions of years of the past, the potential for you to wake up and live was always present because here you are, and if you can fathom an eternal timeless past, the magnitude is infinite, so the good news is your alive, the bad news is you probably always will be weather you like it or not.
So yes, I think what you say is correct, nothing causes something, and the only absolute fact is that things can happen, but all that happens is impermanent and in no way factually absolute.
Re: absolute fact
Yes you have both got it dead right.never happened keeps its integrety it remains sizeless.it is existance without event .it is the certainty which imposes principle to events.example hiesenbergs uncertainty is sizeless to all events and tenseless..things having size move in relativity .sizeless principles how ever do not move in any terms.so sizelessness can create events and be the event but keep its sizeless never happened identity.but can also lose its self non identity , to the event for a time and take on an event identity as it where.this is in keeping with all jesuses teachings.
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James Markham
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Re: absolute fact
Although I believe what is, (consciousness), comes from what isn't, (unconsciousness), I also think the reality that we experience has a function, it is not a random series of events operating within arbitrary parameters. There are primary concepts that are necessarily common, and compulsory to all conscious life, such as the spatial, temporal and extended qualitys required for any subjective sense of personal experience. There are also concepts such as number and geometry, that come into existence as a necessary product of intellectual contemplative thought. That is not to say these ideas are caused by any fundamental, independent features of reality, but that they exist as the necessary developments of the conscious contemplation, and evaluation of any subjective reality.
So the point I was making is that when we evolve as an intellect, reality will always be present in a form that is conducive to the conservation of our rational understanding, and at the same time providing opportunities for insights into the fundamental conditions of existence, and though this may create paradoxical contradictions, it exists in a way that ensures a degree of intelligence evolution is required before reason becomes unequivocal. So in other words, no facts about the fundamental reality are forced upon the mind before it is equipped to deal with the implications, and therefore sanity is in the most cases preserved. It also appears to be the case that there are levels at which consciousness can exist, at which there is little or no chance of enlightenment taking place, and in my opinion this is because all levels of cognitive development are adequate where there exists some level of contentment, and the paths that lead to understanding, are not necessarily the same ones that lead to a higher degree of acceptance, and can therefore be detrimental to the consciousness which experiences it. So what this means is that a society of primitive humans, are not in fact less evolved, or stunted in there evolution, rather they have come to rest in a different, but still viable perspective from which to experience what is ultimately an eternal subjective existence.
So when we exist alongside other forms of life, with various degrees of potential to acquire knowledge, it doesn't mean there aren't realties where those perspectives exist in isolation from the influence of knowledge, just that there also exists perspectives that are subject to that internal curiosity, manifested alongside them as, (on our own world), modern society.
I'm not a follower of any religion, but I get the feeling that the words written by some ancient scholars where in some way drawn from the inner mind, where the truth exists to be found, and in the case of the ancients it was found and articulated in the form of allegorical stories. So as someone long ago said, "if you eat from the tree of knowledge, you will learn of good and evil", I think this is an insightful reference to the fact that if we try to learn about the most fundamental aspects of our existence, we will find that everything is subjective, which means that ultimately we are alone and eternal, and this is what brings forth the need of an illusion to make consciousness feel like there is something other than its own existence to contemplate for the rest of eternity.
Also there is the Buddhist philosophy of being, which I again believe was realised from an inner source of knowledge. One collective consciousness that exists as multiple perspectives reflecting on being, and progressing towards a state, (enlightenment), that is stable by virtue of its emotional neutrality, no highs no lows just a contented acceptence of the timeless condition that is being.
When consciousness becomes aware, there is three absolutes, positive, negative and neutral. These can also be seen as good, evil and innocent, and in their extreme representations they are like the final destinations of reflective introspection, and they exist as perspectives in the form of what we know allegorically as god the devil and Adam, the fact these beliefs stretch back into antiquity is not simple due to the fantastical imaginings of man, they are actually the extremes on the spectrum of perspective, and actual realised states in the form of god, devil and Adam.
As I said, I'm not religious, and I don't believe this has any more importance beyond the fact that as we exist, there are principles that govern the direction of our path, a predominance of certain emotions will serve to propel us towards one of the above extremes, and these extremes are emotional concentrations that exist as a result of the eternal nature of being.
So the point I was making is that when we evolve as an intellect, reality will always be present in a form that is conducive to the conservation of our rational understanding, and at the same time providing opportunities for insights into the fundamental conditions of existence, and though this may create paradoxical contradictions, it exists in a way that ensures a degree of intelligence evolution is required before reason becomes unequivocal. So in other words, no facts about the fundamental reality are forced upon the mind before it is equipped to deal with the implications, and therefore sanity is in the most cases preserved. It also appears to be the case that there are levels at which consciousness can exist, at which there is little or no chance of enlightenment taking place, and in my opinion this is because all levels of cognitive development are adequate where there exists some level of contentment, and the paths that lead to understanding, are not necessarily the same ones that lead to a higher degree of acceptance, and can therefore be detrimental to the consciousness which experiences it. So what this means is that a society of primitive humans, are not in fact less evolved, or stunted in there evolution, rather they have come to rest in a different, but still viable perspective from which to experience what is ultimately an eternal subjective existence.
So when we exist alongside other forms of life, with various degrees of potential to acquire knowledge, it doesn't mean there aren't realties where those perspectives exist in isolation from the influence of knowledge, just that there also exists perspectives that are subject to that internal curiosity, manifested alongside them as, (on our own world), modern society.
I'm not a follower of any religion, but I get the feeling that the words written by some ancient scholars where in some way drawn from the inner mind, where the truth exists to be found, and in the case of the ancients it was found and articulated in the form of allegorical stories. So as someone long ago said, "if you eat from the tree of knowledge, you will learn of good and evil", I think this is an insightful reference to the fact that if we try to learn about the most fundamental aspects of our existence, we will find that everything is subjective, which means that ultimately we are alone and eternal, and this is what brings forth the need of an illusion to make consciousness feel like there is something other than its own existence to contemplate for the rest of eternity.
Also there is the Buddhist philosophy of being, which I again believe was realised from an inner source of knowledge. One collective consciousness that exists as multiple perspectives reflecting on being, and progressing towards a state, (enlightenment), that is stable by virtue of its emotional neutrality, no highs no lows just a contented acceptence of the timeless condition that is being.
When consciousness becomes aware, there is three absolutes, positive, negative and neutral. These can also be seen as good, evil and innocent, and in their extreme representations they are like the final destinations of reflective introspection, and they exist as perspectives in the form of what we know allegorically as god the devil and Adam, the fact these beliefs stretch back into antiquity is not simple due to the fantastical imaginings of man, they are actually the extremes on the spectrum of perspective, and actual realised states in the form of god, devil and Adam.
As I said, I'm not religious, and I don't believe this has any more importance beyond the fact that as we exist, there are principles that govern the direction of our path, a predominance of certain emotions will serve to propel us towards one of the above extremes, and these extremes are emotional concentrations that exist as a result of the eternal nature of being.
Re: absolute fact
Yes i go along with what you say james.about ultimatly being alone or as a part of a singularity.its this singularity which is god or love.so the singularity is either love or aloneness.dependent on what we our selves as indurviduals are.we have some how to rid our selves of our selfish self to be at one in the singlarity.following jesus teachings can do that may be like nothing else can.regs jackles
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James Markham
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- Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:18 pm
Re: absolute fact
Jackles, I'm not really sure how Jesus fits into the equation, other than showing us all that someone with the best intentions can still leave a trail of disaster in his posthumous wake. You may remark it's the fault of various interpretations, but the fact still remains that he divided what was previously a cohesive body of thought, and began the process of dissection and laymen interpretation. And at the end of the day, if old school religion reaches a natural demise, then what good did he really achieve.
Re: absolute fact
Jesus fits in as a catalist for history making .as do others who have started religions intentionaly or by fate.they are the representations of absolute fact state in fictional form .with out which history would lack meaning.so as you say they cause a wake.they cause the action which is what fiction is about.man and woman is fiction.in consciouse fact.meaning is consciouness with or without an event in it..love is action without event or meaning whith out event.or the meaning of life in event action.as in love in hi -story.hope that makes some scence.