Egypt and democracy

[henry quirk]

Spike,

"Ultimately Egypt and Egyptians will decide what's best for them."

Agreed.

Would you agree with what I posted up-thread?

Egypt: again, every one who isn't 'there' needs to mind his or her own business and let those folks get on with doin' with whatever the hell it is they want to try.

If Egypt wants to go sharia, it will...when and if that happens, other folks (like Israel) can respond (and self-defend) accordingly.


#

GF,

When you post things like...

"I have the stats , IQ , 130 ,"

...you come across as a jackass.

There's no way to verify such things and such things are irrelevant 'here'.

Mainly: no one cares what your (or any one's) IQ is.

[Arising_uk]

So is it that I claim to be above intelligence that grates you , I have the stats , IQ , 130 , ...

Then you're wasting it.

8 children in my family , all are above 120 , my dad was a teacher ,

Then you should have learnt how to write.

so you see my sloppy penmenship/typing/writing as an obstacle in the way of understanding my posts ,,???

No, in your case I understand it as a sign of an undisciplined mind.

I would suggest it's just your way of scoring points ,
you get bored with trying to get me to agree with your philosophy ,

I don't try to get you to agree as it's clear you have no intention of questioning your beliefs. I just point out where, from the point of Philosophy now, you are in philosophical error with your thoughts.

so you try and score points any way you can ,

Nope, just every now and then I get tired of the crowing about how bright you think you are when the evidence in writing is to the contrary.

Egypt and the dictatorships ,
Religion is a dictatorship , god is the head , and makes all the rules ,
and the priests and ministers interpret those rules , as you the common person is too stupid ,,!!!
so while they insist on basing their world/politics on religion ,
they will be a dictatorship ,
to rise above the ignorance of religion ,...

You think this applies to Islam? As much of it has not the equivalent of priest and ministers that parts of the Christian Church has.

England declared it's self a secular democracy , ...

No it didn't. It declared an official state religion and then cut the legs off the Church's power by making the monarch the head.

and has come close to achieving it ,those who have tried to copy , often are still a bit of both ,
trying to cling to their religion , and introducing democratic elections ,
in order to become a secular democracy , you have to see religion ,
as less important than democracy ,
you have to topple religion , cut it down a peg or two ,
religion needs to be beheaded , a public demonstration...

Thats not how it happened and where this has happened it's been through dictatorships, i.e. pretty much all the secular governments that existed in the Middle East plus China and the USSR. What you are talking about is a secular society and Britain achieved this by making an official state religion and then making it politically impotent, after that it then began to die-off amongst the public, however it looks like it's back on the rise everywhere.

they like to burn images of Bush etc ,
they need to start burning images of The Profit Mohamud ,
they need to ridicule and belittle religion and their precious profit ,

No-one has done this anywhere to achieve a successful secular democracy.

Although one route is to make a new sect or just pick one and make it the official one and then to kill and burn and vilify all the others(worked for Christian Rome). In England's case it was the Catholics. In Islam's case it looks like it's a race between the Persians and the Arabs.

The French leader 250 years ago said of England ,
a godless society , ...

Because we weren't Catholic.

they were then at the point they declared themselves a secular democracy ,...

This has never been done.

to rise above it ,,
YOU NEED TO LOOK DOWN AT IT

Nope, you just need to make it politically impotent.

[spike]

Egypt can become what ever it wants. But it is not an island. It is part of the global arena. It has to consider that it is also dependent on the world for its livelihood, like tourism, which is its second industry. Because of the instability it is suffering tourist have been staying away in droves and thus has crippled an industry that millions of Egyptians depend on, adding to the woes of the country.

Egypt can adopt sharia law if it wants and nobody should deny them that if that is what the majority want. But they would be shooting themselves in the foot. They would be going backwards, not being progressive. In so doing Egypt would be destroying the open, secular society it needs to survive and continue.

[henry quirk]

Spike,

"But it is not an island."

I agree. Thing is: if those who 'shake and move' in Egypt choose to cripple the country, it's the burden of Egyptians to correct the problem.

The burden of self-defending against the bad choices made by Egyptians (or Egyptian shakers and movers) is the burden of every one else.

My belief is that nations -- like America -- dick around far too much in the affairs of other nations.

Too many cooks in the kitchen usually results in bad food.

Too many nations mucking about with one another's internals results in unnecessary (or even 'crafted') chaos.

If Egypt sinks, then let it do so as a result of its own poor management.

If it rises, then let it be by dint of its own efforts.

Overall, I don't think our positions are far apart.

[spike]

henry,

About America dicking around in other countries affairs, it hasn't always turned out badly, especially in Germany and Japan after WW2. America remade those countries. Why that worked out and American interference hasn't in places like Egypt is because countries like Germany and Japan were like-minded countries, already with cohesive, industrial societies, with extraordinary networks of civil engagement in business and law, like America. Germany and Japan were, in a sense, on the same cultural planet as America. The Muslim/Arab world seems to be from another.

I'm not saying that America has not made blunders along the way in regard to the Muslim/Arab world. But one of the more positive things America did for Egypt is support their claim to the Suez Canal in the 1950s against the wishes of Britain and France, who wanted it to remain under their colonial control.

[henry quirk]

"it hasn't always turned out badly"

I agree.

Thing is: there's no consistency to foreign policy here in the states...it's all as shifting and shifty as the desert.

Congressional composition, the one sitting in the 'big chair', military composition, industrial contracting, and on and on, cluster together to move foreign policy in less than noble directions.

It makes -- again -- for 'bad food'.

[spike]

It makes -- again -- for 'bad food'.

Sorry, no agreement there. It is as it is. Policy is one thing. Outcome is another. And often it is a crapshoot. And don't forget, dynamics are always changing. As we can see, there is no template that covers all.

As you seem to believe, there is only so many things America can do to sway events. Often America finds itself, like the world, between a 'rock and a hard place'.

It's not always the making of 'bad food'. Sometimes the 'food' America is working with is bad. So, often one can expected an unpleasant digestion.

[henry quirk]

"Sometimes the 'food' America is working with is bad."

Agreed. So, perhaps America needs to get out the kitchen, or -- as I said couple of times up-thread, '...every one who isn't 'there' needs to mind his or her own business and let those folks (in Egypt or wherever) get on with doin' with whatever the hell it is they want to try.'

#

"Often America finds itself… between a 'rock and a hard place'."

Yep, largely because the powers that be 'here' (in America) intentionally put America between the two.

[Godfree]

Although one route is to make a new sect or just pick one and make it the official one and then to kill and burn and vilify all the others(worked for Christian Rome). In England's case it was the Catholics. In Islam's case it looks like it's a race between the Persians and the Arabs.

The French leader 250 years ago said of England ,
a godless society , ...

Because we weren't Catholic.

they were then at the point they declared themselves a secular democracy ,...

This has never been done.

to rise above it ,,
YOU NEED TO LOOK DOWN AT IT

Nope, you just need to make it politically impotent.[/quote]

The west seems to be losing the battle with religious fundamentalism because ,
we keep importing the madness ,
nearly all the migrants will be fundamentalists ,
refugee's , third world thinking , in large numbers every year entering our society ,
the Samoans would be a good example here in NZ ,
Auckland is the biggest Polynesian city in the world ,
and a large proportion of the suckers lining up at Destiny church ,
yep , Samoans , brown faces , and all tithing , parting with money in most cases ,
they can't afford ,
So How are we going to turn it around and get things back on the right track ,,????
certainly not be accepting religion as credible ,
as crazy as it sounds it would appear you and I want the same thing ,
we just like arguing about how to achieve ,,???
,,,and ,,,wasn't it Henry the 8th that declared secular democracy ,
I didn't take history , don't read , and didn't pay attention at school , but ,
my memory is pretty good ,, I'm sure it was Henry ,, , I'm sure you will correct me ,,??

[Godfree]

"Sometimes the 'food' America is working with is bad."

Agreed. So, perhaps America needs to get out the kitchen, or -- as I said couple of times up-thread, '...every one who isn't 'there' needs to mind his or her own business and let those folks (in Egypt or wherever) get on with doin' with whatever the hell it is they want to try.'

#

"Often America finds itself… between a 'rock and a hard place'."

Yep, largely because the powers that be 'here' (in America) intentionally put America between the two.

At which point do we intervene? , Egypt ,,Israel ,,Syria ,,Yemen , ???
why not just pull out completely and let happen whatever happens ,,???
the death tole in Syria is accelerating , thousands and thousands ,for what ,
at which point would you intervene ,,???

[henry quirk]

"at which point would you intervene ,,???"

I wouldn't.

I would self-defend when necessary, but not intervene.

[Godfree]

"at which point would you intervene ,,???"

I wouldn't.

I would self-defend when necessary, but not intervene.

What if others in your coalition , decided they wanted to go in , ?
like in the second ww , america was reluctant at first ,
so you would not intervene ,,??
So Asad can kill millions in your opinion and we should do nothing ,,???
genocide , you would just sit by and watch ,,??
it's a bit like the all knowing and all powerful god isn't it ,
watching torture around the world and doing nothing ,
probably one of the reasons why I am not religious ,
when you see wrong being done , if you can do something about it ,, you should ,,,!!!

[Godfree]

It was Henry V111 , I was about 100 years out and maube he didn't actually say"secular democracy"
but as you put it he put in place the changes that brought about the shift in power from the church to the state ,
and was regarded as the beginnings of democracy ,
having a few troublesome priests executed does help , if only we had such powers ,!!!
and Spike ,, they appear to be getting ready to intervene ,,!!!!

[henry quirk]

"What if others in your coalition , decided they wanted to go in , ?"

It's for that reason alliances should never be made lightly. That America binds itself to the actions of other nations is a mistake.

#

"when you see wrong being done , if you can do something about it ,, you should ,,,!!!"

Only if intervention serves a clearly definable purpose with a decent chance of being in the best interests of all involved. Running into a burning home, for example, to save the occupants is just dumb if there's no chance you or the occupants can make it out.

America has mucked about on the global stage for a long time. As Spike points out up-thread 'it is a crapshoot'. The powers that be here (in America) and elsewhere should pick their battles more carefully, more wisely. Instead: it's all dice against the wall and dick-waving.

[Godfree]

"What if others in your coalition , decided they wanted to go in , ?"

It's for that reason alliances should never be made lightly. That America binds itself to the actions of other nations is a mistake.

#

"when you see wrong being done , if you can do something about it ,, you should ,,,!!!"

Only if intervention serves a clearly definable purpose with a decent chance of being in the best interests of all involved. Running into a burning home, for example, to save the occupants is just dumb if there's no chance you or the occupants can make it out.

America has mucked about on the global stage for a long time. As Spike points out up-thread 'it is a crapshoot'. The powers that be here (in America) and elsewhere should pick their battles more carefully, more wisely. Instead: it's all dice against the wall and dick-waving.

One of the problems coming from america , is they can't won't address it from a ,
fundamentalist religion point of view , because they are just as fundamental ,
they are just as entrenched in the madness as Egypt is ,
so that would be my advice to these high and mighty powers ,
call a spade a spade ,,religion is the problem ,
until you acknowledge that ,
you will never solve the problem ,,,!!!